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Help wanted: Nokia N70 or SE K800?


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Posted by mib1800
mr_lou

as I know “Sky Force” exists for J2ME as well. ... N-Gage is another thing. It’s built for games and can’t be compared in my opinion.


Yes. But those j2me version is very much cut-down version with poor graphics and sound. btw: quite a lot of n-gage games can be played on N70 (or any s60 for that matter)

but since K800-battery has about twice the amount of talk time as an N70 has

Unfortunately we know SE battery life claim is pure nonsense. In real-life usage K800 battery will not last 20% longer than N70.

I am not saying that a J2ME device can do everything a Symbian device can do. I am saying that a J2ME device can do most stuff a Symbian device can do.

The second sentence is where I cannot agree (unless your "most" is 50% ). Even if some1 dont know anything about j2me/symbian just by looking at what variety of apps are currently available already indicates that s60 is way ahead.

Actually my intention is not dealt in the merit os j2me/symbian. It is more of the realizable potential of N70 vs K800. Yes, the newer K800 j2me specifications maybe super-duper but at this moment it is not realized (to put it bluntly dead in the water)

Infact, the average user (excluding geeks here) would probably prefer the J2ME device because it’s simpler and safer to use (virus and such)

This is a fallacy. We know s60 devices UI are user friendly. It is designed that way for normal phone user. Even the SE UI since K700 borrows a lot from the s60 UI. btw: If the user dont know what symbian is, how would he/she knows it can be infected by virus.

Most people buying a Symbian OS device really doesn’t need it. ....They could have settled for a J2ME device, but they don’t know, so they want it. Thus we have a demand.


You are right and wrong at the same time. Most may not know they have bought a symbian. But this does not matter. The many more out-of-box functionality of N70, many of which are more powerful than K800 equivalent, are only possible because N70 has symbian under the hood.

So your way of separating symbian from the phone (as many have done before) in determining the pros and cons is not right. The pros of N70 PHONE are brought about by symbian core. So the phone is symbian and symbian is the phone.

I think the main crux of the matter is that a phone with a OS core (symbian or otherwise) would be inherently more advanced/powerful than one without. If u compare side-by-side specs, N70 is much more loaded than K800. But whether this translates to sales is another matter.


Further more, these API’s are not exclusive anymore as they were in the beginning (Nokia’s UI only being present on Nokia phones and Siemens game API only being present on Siemens phones). Today they share the same API’s.

This standardisation is mostly related gaming api platform (i.e. graphic/sound related api services). But phone related services api - well that's another ball game.





Posted by sweetlikea
I have both the K800 and N70.

In summary, the N70 is now old skool compared to the K800.

Battery, Camera, Style, resale price as all better.



Posted by BobaFett
i wouldnt say that n70 is old school, it do fits on many area the individual usage. umts, very good symbian system, many apps, great features etc

Posted by JK
N70 is crap!!! Big and ugly!! And my ex Biatch got it!!!

Posted by mr_lou
mib1800
Yes. But those j2me version is very much cut-down version with poor graphics and sound. btw: quite a lot of n-gage games can be played on N70 (or any s60 for that matter)
Well, if that’s the case then it’s because you’re right about them scaling games down to fit most possible devices, because I’m 100% sure the K800 has speed enough to run the Symbian version, if the J2ME port wasn’t reduced. I think even the K700 has enough speed for this. SE phones are quite fast.
I do believe there is more software available for Symbian devices than for J2ME devices. (Just like there is more software available for series 60 than for UIQ3). If that’s how you measure that Symbian is better, then it makes more sense to me. To me it’s more a question about the technical abilities, but if we have to talk software, it’s also a question if the software is useful to me or not. And so far you haven’t been able to bring up any application I miss having on a J2ME device. You’re welcome to keep trying though.

Unfortunately we know SE battery life claim is pure nonsense. In real-life usage K800 battery will not last 20% longer than N70.
We know? Like you know much of the other stuff you’ve been claiming? Such as there are no additional API’s on the K800, and that all J2ME applications are vapourware, and that midlets can’t run in the background. No offence, but you’ve been claiming many things that wasn’t true.

The second sentence is where I cannot agree (unless your "most" is 50% ). Even if some1 dont know anything about j2me/symbian just by looking at what variety of apps are currently available already indicates that s60 is way ahead.
I don’t think the number of available apps tells you what can and cannot technically be done. I don’t think that’s a factor. That would be like claiming that the N70 is better than P990 and M600….which at this point wouldn’t surprise me if you did.

Actually my intention is not dealt in the merit os j2me/symbian. It is more of the realizable potential of N70 vs K800. Yes, the newer K800 j2me specifications maybe super-duper but at this moment it is not realized (to put it bluntly dead in the water)
So your arguments are based on actual use of two phones, while my arguments are based on the technical potential. We could keep on discussing forever then. That would mean you also think the M600 and P990 sucks big hairy nuts, because there’s no software for UIQ3 yet.

This is a fallacy. We know s60 devices UI are user friendly. It is designed that way for normal phone user. Even the SE UI since K700 borrows a lot from the s60 UI. btw: If the user dont know what symbian is, how would he/she knows it can be infected by virus.
So far I count a few people here that doesn’t think it’s user-friendly.
SE borrows no more than other companies do. If you believe the SE UI since K700 borrows a lot from the S60 UI, then you must also believe that Nokia borrows a lot from the SE UI since their T68i. I don’t see the Nokia UI in the SE phones though. If I did, I probably would have liked it a bit more, but still not enough to buy it.

You are right and wrong at the same time. Most may not know they have bought a symbian. But this does not matter. The many more out-of-box functionality of N70, many of which are more powerful than K800 equivalent, are only possible because N70 has symbian under the hood.
You’re mixing things up, repeating yourself a bit, and I’m too lazy to keep repeating myself in reply.

So your way of separating symbian from the phone (as many have done before) in determining the pros and cons is not right. The pros of N70 PHONE are brought about by symbian core. So the phone is symbian and symbian is the phone.
I disagree. Another repeat: “I don’t like the cover, keys, screen, loose camera-cover, poor camera quality, slow menu-system and slow app startup of the N70”. Symbian or no Symbian, doesn’t matter there. (Make up your mind if we’re debating N70 vs K800 or Symbian vs J2ME).

I think the main crux of the matter is that a phone with a OS core (symbian or otherwise) would be inherently more advanced/powerful than one without. If u compare side-by-side specs, N70 is much more loaded than K800. But whether this translates to sales is another matter.
Much more loaded? Don’t know what you mean by that. Memory seems to be the same. None of them have Wireless LAN (which I don’t want either). If you mean loaded with applications, then yes the N70 probably comes with more preinstalled apps (which I don’t need or use… who wants to write Word documents on their phone??). But as I say, you’re welcome to make more suggestions about (useful) apps that makes Symbian more attractive to me (because I’m quite curious about the M600).

This standardisation is mostly related gaming api platform (i.e. graphic/sound related api services). But phone related services api - well that's another ball game.
It is mostly definitely not mostly related to gaming. I strongly disagree. The 11 API’s in the K800 can be used to develop hardcore business applications, equal to or better than Symbian applications. The main difference is merely, that with J2ME you’re forced to code in Java, while with Symbian you can use several languages. And then, as we’ve been repeating, an Operating System offers some things also, where I believe that, if not API’s are available already, then API’s will be available soon, to provide a similar functionality to J2ME devices. And that’s all you need to code such applications and games.


Posted by maggflodd
Oi, i have to (emphasise: HAVE TO!) use n70 at work: they actually managed to make it slower than the 6680-lemon it's based on! Really! And whatever your gf wants to run on it, make sure she understands as a 'symbian-trade-off' she may have to wait 50+secs to open a sms or forward a page in opera... The k800 does her nails in that time!

Posted by mib1800
mr_lou

Let's see. My disagreement is only with the general statement that "K800 beats N70 in everything except symbian".

1. I presented a list of out-of-box functions which N70 does better than K800. You rebutted those points along the line "I dont need them so these are not advantages". So you have not put up a technical challenge to those points at all.

2. Currently N70 has many 3rd party add-on apps available. I gave some example of these apps. Well, you use the same weak rebuttal as in point 1 above. But then you shift your stance and exert that K800 j2me can be as good as N70 symbian eventhough j2me does not add to the attractiveness of K800 as there are very few apps available currently.

Without offence, as you seems to be so self-righteous in your previous post, let me put it to you this:- You have not present any concrete evidence to support the over-zealous statement that K800 beats N70 in everything. Why dont you be pro-active and show to me evidence of how the "K800 phone device" beats the "N70 phone device" in everything without injecting your personal preferences to the argument. Otherwise, you are the one who is going nowhere.



[ This Message was edited by: mib1800 on 2006-08-16 11:05 ]

Posted by mr_lou
It would be pointless to continue debating with you. I think I have explained my points well several times both regarding hardware (small keys, loose camera cover, poor screen etc) and software, and I would only be repeating myself again if I should clarify even further. I think the feedback from other people here supports me in my statements as well, so I'm stopping after this post.

“K800 beats the N70 in every aspect except for Symbian”

A summery of my opinion, in the “N70 vs. K800” debate:

K800 beats N70 at these things:
1 Lighter weight
2 Smaller size
3 Better battery
4 Infrared
5 Better camera
6 Larger display resolution
7 Better screen quality (as seen in the shop)
8 More robust phone overall (as felt in the shop)
9 Better stable camera cover (as tried in the shop)
10 More useable larger keys and navigation (as tried in the shop)
11 Much faster (as experienced in the shop and confirmed by a bunch of users here at Esato)

N70 beats K800 at these things:
1 Symbian OS

And like shaliron said, having Symbian OS gives a lot of things, though I honestly thought there would be more useful things than the examples I’ve been given in this thread. To me the advantages of having a Symbian OS in my phone sums up to:
1 Better video recording
2 Run nostalgic emulators
3 Playing mod/sid/ay files.

I don’t know what I expected exactly, but maybe it was something extraordinary which couldn’t be done with a K800. Those 3 things are pretty nice (and extraordinary compared to J2ME), but far from enough to sacrifice all those other cool things in the K800. They have more value I think. Then I’d rather wait till someone codes emulators and players in J2ME, which is already happening. But those 3 things are still rather cool, which is why I can’t say that “K800 beats N70 at everything”.


Now, that was about the “N70 vs. K800” debate.

From that debate a new debate spawned called “Symbian vs. J2ME”, where I said: “I believe J2ME can do most things a Symbian OS can do”. You say “Ok, 50%”, I say “most” (which is more than 50%).

You said: “K800 doesn’t have any additional API’s”. I gave you a list of the 9 additional API’s in the K800.
You said: “Midlets can’t run in the background like Symbian applications can. They are suspended”. I explained that SE phones can.
You said: “Midlets can’t ask for a system resource while running in the background without draining battery”. I proved you wrong by finding info at the SE Knowledge base.
(A sidenote here: All MIDP3.0 phones can run multiple midlets in the background, so not just SE phones anymore).
You said: “Java API’s are device specific”. I said: “No they are not, they are shared among devices”. (Try taking a look at the technical specs for your N70, and you will see that 9 of the 11 API’s in the K800 are also present in your N70, exactly the same JSR’s. So J2ME applications that runs on the K800 using some of those API’s will run on your N70 as well).

Anyway, I’m off for now. It’s been fun (and frustrating ). Cheers.

Posted by TopSpin
The sony ericsson K800i is currently the best camera phone and the K800i flash is a real xenon flash!!!!!!

Posted by mib1800
mr_lou

“K800 beats the N70 in every aspect except for Symbian”

Dont you think this statement is deceiving? It would be a disservice to other people who wants to get more info on these phones. It is also pointless to debate with you on the merit of both phones as you keep shifting your stance. Sometimes u use personal preferences and other times you use technical points.

My list (from the technical standpoint only - no personal preferences)

N70 plus points:
===========
- Much better video recording (viewable on TV)
- Bigger physical screen size
- much better PIMs unlimited phonebook, calendar and of active today screen.
- independent voice dialing (no need to record voice sample)
- better blog system which automatic log your activities like sms, image/video taking, notes & calendar entries and later allow you to sync to your PC/blog.
- Nokia mobile-search (symbian app) - customised yellow pages capability.
- Yahoo Go and Google map (symbian app) pre-installed
- PTT and EDGE support
- video streaming via realplayer
- much better multi-tasking
- much better document handling capability (office docs, flash, pdf etc).
- more jazzy gallery/image viewer (slideshow with music) but slow to use.
- better profile system incl. going to offline mode without rebooting.
- better theme system - you can change most of the UI.
- unlimited sms storage
- power of Symbian with unlimited customisability with many 3rd party add-on apps available

K800 plus points:
============
- better still image and camera program
- smaller and lighter
- better screen with higher resolution
- better battery life
- faster UI (with better looking icons)
- self-upgradable firmware.

My recommendation:
===============
Both phones are good buy depending on your priority. If camera is important to you get the K800. If you like to play games, need PIMs/ pda functions, need good video recording and ability to upgrade the capability of the phone then get N70. Bear in mind that N70 exposes the full phone OS to apps and sometimes this may cause phone instability if you install incompatible or rouge Symbian applications.


[ This Message was edited by: mib1800 on 2006-08-17 03:56 ]

Posted by J-J
Quote:

On 2006-08-17 04:53:41, mib1800 wrote:
My recommendation:
===============
Both phones are good buy depending on your priority. If camera is important to you get the K800. If you like to play games, need PIMs/ pda functions, need good video recording and ability to upgrade the capability of the phone then get N70. Bear in mind that N70 exposes the full phone OS to apps and sometimes this may cause phone instability if you install incompatible or rouge Symbian applications.
[ This Message was edited by: mib1800 on 2006-08-17 03:56 ]



which is basically what i said about 50 posts ago
"Everyones requirements for a phone are different and therefore different phones will suit different people, i can only comment on the experiences i have had with with my requirements. "

Posted by korbindallis
man u dont compare the n70 with the k800 casue the 800 is a newer model with a 3.2mp cam
just get the k800i

Posted by mib1800
what does newer model has anything to do with it? N70 is a smartphone and K800 is not. To those who need smartphone capability they go straight for N70 without giving K800 another glance. Anyway K800 camera is over-rated.


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