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Help wanted: Nokia N70 or SE K800?


Click to view updated thread with images




Posted by mr_lou
Girlfriend needs a new phone. Itíll be either the SE K800 or the Nokia N70, because we can get those two cheap.

Now, the N70 looks nice because it has Symbian = she can run C64 emulator (Frodo) and play the good old games. That is a huge plus. We have also learned that the N70 can record video in high quality, but video-recording isnít so high on the wish-list. Taking normal pictures is higher.

The SE K800 takes very nice pictures, and I know from experience with the K700 and W800 that the K800 is a superb phone, BUT it is not a smartphone so playing C64 games emulated is out of the question.

The N70 is therefore preferred right now, because of SymbianÖ. But weíre in doubt if it runs fast enough. Weíve seen several users complain about it being slow, which gets us thinking if it will run a C64 emulator like Frodo fast enough. That question brought us here. Can someone answer these questions for us?

1: Can the Nokia N70 run Frodo without problems? How many FPS can it give?
2: Is the Nokia N70 slow otherwise? (We know that the K800 canít possible be slow. SE rules).
3: What would YOU prefer and why?

Thanks.


Posted by BobaFett
i would go for the n70, the symbian system is really impressive, except the crap keypad of it, i do liked it. k800 didnt impressed me that much. but it also depends on your own taste. did u gave a try for both fones already?

Posted by dancingfate
SE K800 : descent 3.2MP Kamera with a bunch of nice features.
N70 is crap.


Posted by mr_lou
Thanks for the replies.

We have just read somewhere that the N70 can play SID files too (Commodore64 music). That is also a big plus.

Rifqi_Aziz: Why do you think the N70 is crap? What's your experience with it?

Posted by BobaFett
@mr godaften did u gave atry for n70 already? thesymbian is really good, plenty of applications are for it, very fast on umts system, next to keypad the crap display resolution was disturbing for me. if it counts, the cam is accepteable aswell. i do liked the "mtv edition" of it, i saw it in copenhagen lately.

Posted by mr_lou
BobaFett: No, we haven't tried any of the phones. If we could try them out for a week before buying we wouldn't have to ask questions.

Posted by dancingfate
@BobaFett
Who's "godaften"? Is it me or someone else?
@mr_lou
I don't have Nokia N70 but have had a little try of it. Its sound is really bad compare to W800. W800 also better in its 2 MP camera.
K800 is 3.2MP so it will definetely beats camera of N70.
The advantage of N70 over K800 may be for its Symbian OS only.
But if you do need a Symbian phone, why don't you consider Nokia N73? I think it's better than N70 and got a 3.2MP camera also.
CMIIW.

Posted by BobaFett
@rifqi godaften means "good evening" on danish

@mr i get your point, but its really important to hold a fone in your hands and get so impressions, how does it feel at usage, how do u like the menu system etc

Posted by Aware
Had an N70(sim-free), media key stopped working(at all) after 2 days; it couldn't understand my contacts .vcf file and only added the first one(leaving some 483 'missing'); couldn't remember when it was supposed to be playing music(i.e: before AND after a call); the 220hz processor should have been left in a 6630; oh, and I had it flashed to v.5 firmware by Nokia, and only the media key was actually fixed! No change in operating speed, and music player started giving me spanish(? 'a processar' displayed when scanning for music) output!
Sold it 2 days later, got my P900 flashed to P910 f/w, and used that until I got my K800(which amazingly, has only one slight bug, and thats not any of those listed on here!)...............

Posted by BobaFett
i had ca 3 times n70, never had any problem with any of them. i upgraded it usually at nokia service center.

Posted by maestro4
I've gone back to using my d750i after having my n70 for just one month it's an excellent phone by and large but very frustrating to use so now selling it:-(

Posted by Dogmann
Hi all,
since my P910i stopped synching with outlook i have returned to Nokia first a N70 running the latest FW and have had no crashes or freezes but the menus and apps are slow to open plus if you have a Yahoo e-mail account you have push e-mail that works faultlessly. I now have a N73 (less than 48hrs) huge bright screen and all the menus and apps open really fast music player and stereo speakers are very good and the camera is awesome IMO.

Marc

[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2006-08-11 20:52 ]

Posted by brix25
I was going to get a K800i but like my sig says I couldn't wait and instead went for an N70...nice phone to look at but the menus are slow. Otherwise the camera is reasonable, not quite as good as a K750 but still reasonable- actually quite better then my K700.
I love S60 and it's huge software library.

Posted by voda_jon
yeh the N70 would have to be my choice if i hadnt picked up a Nokia N73 before lol...

Dont go for an N73 if u want loads of software as it runs Series 60 3rd Edition and there is hardly anything exciting software wise for it at the moment!!!

If u want software stick to the N70 or earlier...

J.

Posted by shaliron
If you really want Symbian, then by all means go for the N70, but the K800 beats it in everything else.

Posted by mr_lou
What is really attractive with the N70 is the possibility of running a C64 emulator. It can do this because it has Symbian OS, and Frodo is available for the Symbian OS. K800 can only run J2ME stuff, and Frodo is not ported to J2ME.

But look what we found now...
http://sourceforge.net/projects/jmec64/

A C64 emulator for J2ME, which in theory should run on the K800. I have just tested it on my W800i, and it runs very very very sloooooow, but it runs. So if the K800 is much faster than the W800, then maybe it'll work.

Anyone out there with
- a SE K800
- love for C64
- little experience with jar files
then try the JMEC64 project on your phone, and tell us how it works.

Here is a JAR file with the needed ROM files and the game FIREANT:
http://www.dewfall.dk/midp/JMEC64-0.9.7-bin.jar (146kb)

That would definitely make the K800 first choice, but there would have to be some power in the K800 for the emulator to run ok.


Posted by mr_lou
Weíve now had a chance to try out both the N70 and the K800, and sheís made a decision. Like BobaFett says, itís really important to find out how it feels at usage.

It will be the K800 because, like shaliron says, the K800 certainly does beat the N70 in everything but the Symbian OS. We think the K800 has better controls and menu-system. And like Dogmann and brix25 says, the menus and apps open slow on the N70. The camera-slider on the N70 opens too easy in your pocket, which we also read on some other forum. The navigation-buttons (and buttons in general) are way too small on the N70, while the joystick on the K800 was really nice. I have personally never had any problems with the joystick solution on the SE phones. Iíve been using those ever since the T68i, but I know many people hate joystick-navigation. I just want to say that itís easy to see that SE has significantly improved the joystick on the K800 compared to earlier models (though Iíve never had any problems with earlier models either). And finally, the K800 simply looks better and has an impressive screen.

We also tested the JMEC64 on the K800, which unfortunately doesnít run fast enough, though much faster than on my W800i. So sheíll have to do without a C64 emulator for now.

Thanks for all help and feedback.


Posted by BobaFett
det er i orden how did u like n70 btw?

Posted by QVGA
Consider an N71. Almost same price, but a much better screen and camera

Posted by BobaFett
i wasnt really amazed of the clashall idea. next to it n71 runs the new symbian os, so not that many apps for it as for the n70

Posted by mr_lou
QVGA: We can only get the N70 and K800 cheap, not the N71. So we had to choose between those two.

Posted by BobaFett
well, on some way the k800 fits better dine veninde as i see.

Posted by mib1800
Quote:
the K800 certainly does beat the N70 in everything but the Symbian OS.



This is such an exageration by SE fans. Let's just take out-of-box functionality and see where N70 beats K800 hands down. I wont even mention add-on apps otherwise K800 have no where to hide.

- Much better video recording (K800 video record is really crap)
- Much bigger physical screen size
- much better PIMs like unlimited phonebook, calendar and of course the very useful active today screen.
- independent voice dialing. K800 is still using voice tags.
- better blog system which automatic log your activities like sms, image/video taking, notes & calendar entries and later allow you to sync to your PC/blog. K800 blog is so rudimentary compared to this.
- Nokia mobile-search - customised yellow pages capability. K800 dont have this.
- Yahoo Go and Google map pre-installed (may vary by region)
- PTT and EDGE support (K800 dont have this)
- video streaming via realplayer (K800 dont have this)
- much better multi-tasking (you can have any apps opened instead being restricted to java in K800)
- much better document handling capability (office docs, flash, pdf, web browser). K800 dont even come close.
- more jazzy gallery/image viewer (slideshow with music) and the movie editor thing.
- better profile system incl. going to offline mode without rebooting.
- much better theme system - you can change most of the UI unlike K800 which is restricted to certain aspect like wallpaper.
- unlimited sms storage




Posted by shaliron
@mib1800
But you've got to remember that many of those benefits are because of the fact that the N70 is a Symbian phone. Also, the screen may be bigger, but the K800's is better. Quality vs. Quantity.

Posted by mib1800
shaliron:

Quote:

But you've got to remember that many of those benefits are because of the fact that the N70 is a Symbian phone. Also, the screen may be bigger, but the K800's is better. Quality vs. Quantity.



These are advantages of N70 nonetheless. These are "out-of-box" advantages and it is not like u need to pay for it. So in a comparison you just cannot drop those advantages of N70 "just because they are brought about by Symbian". The fact that K800 is NOT symbian is already a huge disadvantage.

A bigger screen also improve the quality of viewing as well because it is less strainful to eyes and it allows for more text to be display. So it is not just quantity-vs-quality.


Posted by BobaFett
U cannot say that n70 is better imo those fones are so 2 different and a symbian os is over the k800 os.


Posted by shaliron
@mib1800
Actually AFAIK, with increased resolution, you can display more text. It has nothing to do with size. The size of the screen means that the pixels are bigger, giving you larger text.

But at the risk of going off topic, ultimately it depends on how much your girlfriend treasures the Symbian benefits (of playing old games). Also, consider whether she wants to carry around the increased bulk of having the N70 over the K750.

Posted by mr_lou
mib1800:
- Much better video recording (K800 video record is really crap)
Well, yes. Thatís true, but she doesn't care about video recording. She'd rather have a nice built-in camera, which the K800 does much better than the N70.
- Much bigger physical screen size
Yes, but with a lousy resolution at only 128x160 pixels, where the K800 has 240x320 pixels. We would rather have a smaller screen with a high resolution than a big screen with a poor resolution.
- much better PIMs like unlimited phonebook, calendar and of course the very useful active today screen.
I doubt it has better PIM. Been using the SE systems for years, and it has never failed me in anything Ė except in the beginning where you couldnít add a birthday of a person.
- independent voice dialing. K800 is still using voice tags.
Not sure what you mean here, but it sounds like something weíll never use.
- better blog system which automatic log your activities like sms, image/video taking, notes & calendar entries and later allow you to sync to your PC/blog. K800 blog is so rudimentary compared to this.
This ďfeatureĒ is also what is making the N70 incredible slow, from what I can understand when reading comments from N70 users.
- Nokia mobile-search - customised yellow pages capability. K800 dont have this.
We donít think itís that much trouble to enter the URL of a similar site.
- Yahoo Go and Google map pre-installed (may vary by region)
Again, inputting an URL isnít that difficult.
- PTT and EDGE support (K800 dont have this)
Useless to us since we donít use EDGE in Denmark. However, should you wish to have EDGE you can go for the K790 which is the same model as the K800, except K800 has UMTS and K790 has EDGE.
- video streaming via realplayer (K800 dont have this)
Not needed. Personally I have never liked Realplayer, and playing mp4 files is fine with me.
- much better multi-tasking (you can have any apps opened instead being restricted to java in K800)
True, but this is because of the Symbian OS. And I already said that the N70 does beat the K800 with the Symbian features.
- much better document handling capability (office docs, flash, pdf, web browser). K800 dont even come close.
True, but donít underestimate Java. Even the K750 is considered to almost be a PDA nowadays, because of the Java capabilities. For an example, check out www.nav4all.com which is a navigation system with GPS support.
- more jazzy gallery/image viewer (slideshow with music) and the movie editor thing.
SE has had a very nice movie-editor since the W800. I doubt they have removed it in the K800. However, more jazzy or not is most likely a matter of taste.
- better profile system incl. going to offline mode without rebooting.
True, if the N70 can do that. However, itís pretty useless to me since Iíve never had to do that.
- much better theme system - you can change most of the UI unlike K800 which is restricted to certain aspect like wallpaper.
You mean you can change a font color without loading a new theme? I suppose that could be useful yes. However, whenever Iíve stumbled into a theme I wanted to change a bit, Iíve just used a theme-editor on the PC. It's not something that makes me prefer the N70.
- unlimited sms storage
This could be useful yes, not being forced to delete messages because storage is full. But itís not a big deal. Because Iím using tools such as MyPhoneExplorer and Floatís Mobile Agent, Iíve rarely manage to fill up sms storage.

shaliron:
But at the risk of going off topic, ultimately it depends on how much your girlfriend treasures the Symbian benefits (of playing old games). Also, consider whether she wants to carry around the increased bulk of having the N70 over the K750.
Correct. And she didnít need that much time to decide which phone she preferred, after having seen them both in action. I must admit I expected a little more from the N70 too, and the Symbian features really attracted me. But that's simply not enough with all the cons it has. My opinion.


Posted by mib1800
shaliron
with increased resolution, you can display more text. It has nothing to do with size. The size of the screen means that the pixels are bigger, giving you larger text.

Yes. But then you have to strain your eyes to see the text in small screen


mr_lou:

N70 has 176X208 resolution.

So if you want to compare based on personal preferences then yeah any thing goes as long as your heart desires.

BUT I think it is just pure hypocritical for someone (refering to general sense) to say N70 is inferior to K800 "just because you dont need those functions". . Just imaging if I say K800 is inferior to N70 because I don't prefer that stupid hump at the back of K800. What would your reaction be?

Even the K750 is considered to almost be a PDA nowadays

Are you kidding? Java can do ziltch except for games. I think you have no idea what some of the Symbian apps can do. Java is just very far from useful or no developer is attempting to develop more advance apps for this platform which comes to same thing.




[ This Message was edited by: mib1800 on 2006-08-13 12:39 ]

Posted by shaliron
@mib1800
I don't think that anyone's calling the N70 inferior to the K800. It's just that in this particular situation, the K800 is more suitable. Like Bobafett said, they're both different phones.

Posted by mr_lou
mib1800
BUT I think it is just pure hypocritical for someone (refering to general sense) to say N70 is inferior to K800 "just because you dont need those functions". . Just imaging if I say K800 is inferior to N70 because I don't prefer that stupid hump at the back of K800. What would your reaction be?
I would probably shake my head and think: ďWhat a silly manĒ.

Are you kidding? Java can do ziltch except for games. I think you have no idea what some of the Symbian apps can do. Java is just very far from useful or no developer is attempting to develop more advance apps for this platform which comes to same thing.
Not kidding. I know the advantages of Symbian. Iím simply claiming that you can get a lot longer with Java today than you probably think you can. Also, phones donít just come with Java. They come with a bunch of APIís as well, which you can use with Java. With applications like messengers, calculators, navigation-programs with GPS support, browsers such as Opera, RSS readers, file-explorers with FTP, text-editors, remote control systems of your PC, Word document and PDF viewers etc, Java phones are not as simple as most people think anymore. And now people are beginning to write emulators in J2ME as well, such as Gameboy emulators, ZX and Commodore64. Because of these things, people do consider the W800/K750 to be almost a PDA. At least Iíve heard it from a few salespeople, and I agree.

But apart from that, I did say, and I do still think, that K800 beats the N70 in every aspect except for the Symbian OS and video-recording. That is my opinion after having tried both phones in the shop. Iím not just talking about whatís inside the phones, but also how they are built.
Symbian OS is nice and is does give much more flexible applications compared to what Java can do, but when itís that slow I prefer the fast K800 instead, with Java that gives me much of the stuff Symbian can give me, though far from everything Symbian can give me.
Java also has the upside that stuff that runs on an older Nokia 6610 also works on newer devices. Symbian applications are divided into ďSeries 60 1stíní2nd editionĒ, ďSeries 60 3rd editionĒ, ďUIQ2Ē and ďUIQ3Ē applications etc, so you canít expect that the stuff your mate is running on his Symbian phone will also work on your Symbian phone, because itís probably not available. Java applications are written for either MIDP1 or MIDP2 phones and all MIDP1 apps works on MIDP2 phones as well. That said, there will also be applications written for Java phones with a specific API, but I consider that to be a different scenario.

Anyway, when it all comes down to it, it will always be nothing more than a matter of taste. Itís not that I prefer Java over Symbian. Iíve always wanted to try out the P900, but I think itís too big. I might get the M600 though. Depends on what I think of it, after having tried it in the shopÖ


Posted by dotsis
Mib is bob on.What person in the right frame of mind would choose the k800 over a s60 3rd edition.I'd rather have a 7610 or other old model than any k series crap, seriously!

Posted by jack77777
nokia = there trying too hard.

sony ericsson = not bothered but like to stick with there projects.

samsung = good phones their starting to come into shape.

motorola = for kids.


all phones are good



Posted by Chazzer3
You should wait for the N73, then you get good video, pretty much the best mobile cam, (overall), symbian, amazing screen etc etc.

I'm waiting for it.

Charlie -

Posted by baconnugget
i had the n70, imo the k800 is alot better, but the n73 look good as the k800 imo

Posted by mib1800
mr_lou

would probably shake my head and think: ďWhat a silly manĒ.

hmmmm....(hope you knew what u r implicating)

Also, phones donít just come with Java. They come with a bunch of APIís as well, which you can use with Java.....with Java that gives me much of the stuff Symbian can give me

K800 does not have APIs other than what supported java. K800 may have advance Java support but it is nowhere near symbian. Like I say, nobody has develop any serious apps for K800 and I doubt there will be.
And certainly none that can match something like the following on my N70 (I just give a few of my favorite):-


1. Call Management. When I call or my phone rings, a dashboard (see below) is automatically shown and I can use number keys to select an operation like record conversation or reject with a sms, activate the phone answering machine or use smart-talk. It can be set to a default action if I dont do anything. It can also do auto-reject my black listed numbers.



2. Cell-based "gps" (dont need gps receiver or subscription). Knowing cell locations, phone can auto do stuff. E.g. when I pick up my sister from work, once I reach a certain point in the route the phone will auto-sms her telling her to be at pickup point. Or when I enter my home, phone will automatic change to "home" profile and deactivate my bluetooth and vice-versa if I leave my home.

3. Profile Management (add-on) - auto activate/reset profile based on calendar/time entries. Additionally can tie phone operations to profile change like switching theme, activate an application etc. I used this in conjunction with cell gps/calendar. E.g. set meeting entries in my calendar and phone auto activate "meeting" profile during meeting period. When I enter certain location,the phone auto switch profile and at the same time auto-switch the theme. So my phone UI always have a refreshing look.

4. Voice notes: At any time I press a hot key and phone will start recording a voice memo. After that I can set the voice into the calendar just like any entries.

5. Advance music player supporting ogg format.

So IMO, because of Symbian, N70 beats K800 in everything except camera and battery life.

Posted by mr_lou
mib1800
Before I begin, let me just emphasize, that a device with 100 features isnít necessarily better than a device with 50 features. Itís easy to stuff a device with lots of features thatís really useless to the general public. BUT, itís a matter of taste of course.

Further more, it seems you keep forgetting that Iím not claiming the K800 is better than a Symbian device. Iím merely saying, that in my opinion the K800 beats the N70 in every aspect except the Symbian OS and video-recording.. You seem to concentrate on that N70 is better because of Symbian OS, while forgetting all other thingsÖ including that Iím not disagreeing with you when you say that Symbian is nice. But I donít like the cover, keys, screen, loose camera-cover, poor camera quality, slow menu-system and slow app startup of the N70. Those are some of the aspects where the K800 totally beats the N70. I just donít like Symbian as much as you seem to do, that I donít care one bit about all other aspects of the phone.

Anyway, since youíre turning this thread into a discussion about how much a J2ME device can do compared to a Symbian device, letís just continue with that. That can be fun too. I wonder how long a post can be here at EsatoÖhehe.

K800 does not have APIs other than what supported java.
That is wrong mate. Besides standard Java APIís (MIDP2.0 and CLCD1.1) I count 9 additional APIís in the K800:
1-PDA Optional Packages for J2ME Platform (JSR 75)
2-Wireless Messaging 1.0 and 2.0 API's (JSR 120/205)
3-Mobile Media API (JSR 135)
4-Java Technology for the Wireless Industry (JSR 185)
5-Java API for Bluetooth (JSR 82)
6-Web Services (JSR 172)
7-Advanced Multimedia Supplements (JSR 234) (camera capabilities)
8-Mascot Capsule Micro3D Version 3
9-Mobile 3D Graphics API for Java ME (JSR 184)

To find out what these APIís can actually do, take a look at this link:
http://www.jcp.org/en/jsr/tech?listBy=1&listByType=platform

You must have read it as ďapplicationsĒ when I said ďAPIĒ? An API = Application Programming Interface.
You can see that the APIís in the K800 gives developers a bunch of options, since they can access all kinds of stuff like PIM data, camera and Bluetooth etc. For example, with the Mobile Media API you can access the camera, and turn your phone into a geeky mouse. (http://www.pyrofersprojects.com/nokiamouse.php)

K800 may have advance Java support but it is nowhere near symbian. Like I say, nobody has develop any serious apps for K800 and I doubt there will be.
Well, we seem to disagree about what a ďserious appĒ is. The ones you list below arenít serious to me. They are mostly for fun and gag. But I suppose an app is ďseriousĒ when itís something you need. I donít need the functions to the extend those apps supply, though I do use some of the similar built-in functions of my W800.

1. Call Management. When I call or my phone rings, a dashboard (see below) is automatically shown and I can use number keys to select an operation like record conversation or reject with a sms, activate the phone answering machine or use smart-talk. It can be set to a default action if I dont do anything. It can also do auto-reject my black listed numbers.
Sony Ericsson phones doesnít give me all those options, only the ones I need. When someone calls you, you select to pickup or to reject. When the call is going on you can record the conversation if you want, put on speaker, or even add another call to the conversation. The other options listed in the example I really canít find useful. If you reject a call, itís most likely because youíre busy, so thereís no time to write an sms either. I do that later in that case. But again, a matter of taste, and if you need it, you need it. But I really donít.

2. Cell-based "gps" (dont need gps receiver or subscription). Knowing cell locations, phone can auto do stuff. E.g. when I pick up my sister from work, once I reach a certain point in the route the phone will auto-sms her telling her to be at pickup point. Or when I enter my home, phone will automatic change to "home" profile and deactivate my bluetooth and vice-versa if I leave my home.
Itís a funny idea, and probably useful to people travelling between several broadcasters (which I donít). Iím pretty sure itís possible with Java today also though. Itís merely a question of requesting which satellite / broadcaster the phone is using at the moment. And if itís not possible with any of the APIís in the K800, then Iím sure itíll come soon.
But something that I could consider being useful, is to use the phone as a Bluetooth ďkeyĒ to turn on your computer. I think this has been developed also already.

3. Profile Management (add-on) - auto activate/reset profile based on calendar/time entries. Additionally can tie phone operations to profile change like switching theme, activate an application etc. I used this in conjunction with cell gps/calendar. E.g. set meeting entries in my calendar and phone auto activate "meeting" profile during meeting period. When I enter certain location,the phone auto switch profile and at the same time auto-switch the theme. So my phone UI always have a refreshing look.
Well, I suppose it could be nice to have one theme at work and another at home, but I fail to see how a small feature like this makes you love the Symbian OS. Itís certainly nothing that impresses me.

4. Voice notes: At any time I press a hot key and phone will start recording a voice memo. After that I can set the voice into the calendar just like any entries.
Also possible to code in J2ME, but not useful to me.

5. Advance music player supporting ogg format.
Well, J2ME canít play OGG yet no. But since Iíve never left the mp3 format, this isnít a sad thing to me. All my music is in mp3, and Iím more than happy with the built-in mp3 player in the W800 (and K800). I donít want to start a debate about mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma etc etc.


Maybe Iím not a fulltime user of smart-phone capabilities. Apps such as a Converter, Messenger client, ICQ, Opera browser, World clock are things I rarely use, though I do have them installed in my W800.
I use the built-in browser quite a lot though, with bookmarks to opening-hours at the local market (mostly just to check if they are open on a sunday), online shopping list, ToDo list and Wishlist I can edit from my computer and view on the phone.
Lately Iíve been using a handy customisable calculator for some trigonometry calculations also, and the Nav4All application because I couldnít find an address and wasnít anywhere near a computer, and a simple RSS reader to check for new auctions on an eBay-like Danish site and uploads to Aminet. Other than that Iím playing a few games and looking at other gag-apps such as ďRandom QuotesĒ. Though I have a bunch of apps installed, like a very useful LyricTracker (connects to the internet and downloads lyrics of a certain song), I never really use them (even though Iím actually a musician).

Basically I only like Symbian because it gives me the possibility of emulating several nostalgic game-consoles such as MAME, Gameboy, NES, C64 and Amstrad CPC464 (ďseriousĒ apps to me, but most likely not to you). But all the other PDA-related stuff is available on Sony Ericsson phones today. Synchronization of contacts, calendar and tasks has been possible at least since my T68i. Heck, the T68i could even remotely control Winamp (even the Ericsson T39 could do this), and I used that quite a lot because my computer (in the office) was connected to the stereo in the living room.

It is my belief that with all the Java APIís continuingly emerging for J2ME (and MIDP3.0 is also being developed), it wonít be long before you canít find a single thing J2ME canít do compared to Symbian. Letís wait and see if Iím right, and if I am, youíll buy me a beer. We can pick it up in about a year.

Posted by mib1800
mr lou

I see you like the K800. I am not trying to change your mind. Most of us dont use the full capability of a phone. In fact using your reasoning there is no different between a K800 or 6230 or V3.

My point on the N70 symbian advantage is that in the event you need to have some additional functions which your current phone dont have, you have a chance to upgrade it with 3rd party software. And we know S60 softwares are available in thousands. With K800, the problem is that everything is vaporware at the moment.

You can dismiss those example of apps but I find it very useful. I am sure many people will find them useful too. Putting personal preferences aside, my general assertion that N70 beats K800 in everything except camera/battery life still holds true. This also holds true for out-of-box functionality.

===========
If you reject a call, itís most likely because youíre busy, so thereís no time to write an sms either.

Actually, you can predefine canned smses to send. All is needed is 2 strokes of the keyboard to reject and send.

Itís a funny idea, and probably useful to people travelling between several broadcasters (which I donít).

Maybe you are not sure how this works. Your cell phone will connect to different base-stations as you move about in the cellular network. I am pretty sure your phone will need to connect to many base stations unless of course you are stuck at one location all the time. The phone will collect info of these base-stations. Then you can define actions to be perform the next time the phone connects/disconnects from those base-station.

Iím pretty sure itís possible with Java today also though. Itís merely a question of requesting which satellite / broadcaster the phone is using at the moment. And if itís not possible with any of the APIís in the K800, then Iím sure itíll come soon.

I am very sure this would never happen as this functionality requires pre-emptive OS. And we know K800 does not have this kind of OS.


Posted by mr_lou
mib1800
My point on the N70 symbian advantage is that in the event you need to have some additional functions which your current phone dont have, you have a chance to upgrade it with 3rd party software. And we know S60 softwares are available in thousands. With K800, the problem is that everything is vaporware at the moment.
J2ME applications are also 3rd party software, and I disagree that everything is vapourware. They are just as ďrealĒ software as Symbian software, unless your definition of vapourware is different than mine. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware)

You can dismiss those example of apps but I find it very useful. I am sure many people will find them useful too. Putting personal preferences aside, my general assertion that N70 beats K800 in everything except camera/battery life still holds true. This also holds true for out-of-box functionality.
We can agree that we disagree.

Actually, you can predefine canned smses to send. All is needed is 2 strokes of the keyboard to reject and send.
Hm, well. Send predefined SMSís when a specific person calls? That could actually come in handy. And Iím sure it can also be coded using J2ME along with additional APIís.

Maybe you are not sure how this works. Your cell phone will connect to different base-stations as you move about in the cellular network. I am pretty sure your phone will need to connect to many base stations unless of course you are stuck at one location all the time. The phone will collect info of these base-stations. Then you can define actions to be perform the next time the phone connects/disconnects from those base-station.
My point was exactly that Iím pretty much stuck at one location.

I am very sure this would never happen as this functionality requires pre-emptive OS. And we know K800 does not have this kind of OS.
Well, weíll see. Iím sure there will be an API at some point that makes it possible to retrieve info about the base station (if there isnít already), and then developers can make an application that sends sms or whatever when switched to a certain base station.
Keep in mind that J2ME applications can run in the background nowadays.

Posted by pow1990
i see a good old debate going down here

Posted by mib1800
mr_lou

They are just as ďrealĒ software as Symbian software

Java apps are real but very rudimentary compared to Symbian. Even now there is no camera/music player program using Java. On my N70, I have 3rd party camera/music apps which outperform the built-in ones. And for games, if you have played Symbian games then trust me, you would not want to touch Java games anymore.

Like a PC, N70 is "upgradable" ie. you can upgrade the functions with 3rd party apps. If you dont like how the built-in calendar/contact/camera work u have the option to replace them. Or add new functions or replace any functions which are outdated. Even a 3-4years old S60 phone like 6600 can have independent voice dialing (i.e. without the need to first record a sample sound) or have your SMSes read out to you once u receive them.


My point was exactly that Iím pretty much stuck at one location.

I'm really surprise to hear this. If I am not mistaken a cellular base station can serve an area of 200-500metres radius.

And Iím sure it can also be coded using J2ME along with additional APIís. ...Keep in mind that J2ME applications can run in the background nowadays.

Like I say it would not work because once you put Java in background that program is suspended. Even if you run such Java in foreground, it would not be feasible as the only way for Java to determine whether there is a change in base-station connection is to continuously check for it. This will suck all the battery out of the phone very fast.

So for any complex apps that integrates capability of phone/wireless/camera/UI/sound to be feasible u need an advance pre-emtive OS like Symbian with full native API support.

Without offence, the K800 is just like a programmable calculator and N70 is like a full-blown WinXP computer. In terms of (software) functional capability (except hardware related like camera sensor), the reality is that N70 outperforms K800 in everything.

Unless the camera is the ONLY deciding factor, imo N70 is a much better phone. And it is cheaper also. btw: N70 2MP camera do take very good picture. WIth the latest N70 firmware the speed has improve considerably. Of course not as fast as a normal phone but still very much usable.



[ This Message was edited by: mib1800 on 2006-08-15 06:15 ]

Posted by Manuel_max
Go for k800!!!

regards........

Posted by mr_lou
mib1800
Java apps are real but very rudimentary compared to Symbian. Even now there is no camera/music player program using Java.
True that there's no camera/music player other that the built-in ones. I also doubt anyone can make software that makes better use of SE's camera. (With Nokia it's not such a big surprise that someone can make better apps than the supplied ones). Anyway, for those who really needs to be able to play OGG or another format, I'm sure it'll come soon. Personally I'd like to be able to play SID files on my phone, and I can see now that such a player is already being developed. Untill then, I don't have a problem converting my SID files into MP3 if I really want to listen to them on my phone, but so far I'll wait.

On my N70, I have 3rd party camera/music apps which outperform the built-in ones. And for games, if you have played Symbian games then trust me, you would not want to touch Java games anymore.
But I have played Symbian games, and they really donít impress me that much. Name a few examples then. Perhaps Iíve just avoided the best games somehow.

Like a PC, N70 is "upgradable" ie. you can upgrade the functions with 3rd party apps. If you dont like how the built-in calendar/contact/camera work u have the option to replace them. Or add new functions or replace any functions which are outdated. Even a 3-4years old S60 phone like 6600 can have independent voice dialing (i.e. without the need to first record a sample sound) or have your SMSes read out to you once u receive them.
That is true. That is the advantage of a PDA / smartphone. If you need this advantage or not is another issue.

I'm really surprise to hear this. If I am not mistaken a cellular base station can serve an area of 200-500metres radius.
Really? I thought they ranged a bigger radius. Now you got me curious if I can do that with J2ME. I will investigate.

Like I say it would not work because once you put Java in background that program is suspended.
That is not true. Granted, some phones canít run midlets in the background (Iím guessing Nokia phones), but Sony Ericsson phones can.

Even if you run such Java in foreground, it would not be feasible as the only way for Java to determine whether there is a change in base-station connection is to continuously check for it. This will suck all the battery out of the phone very fast.
Not true either. The following is a quite from the Sony Ericsson knowledge base:
ďIf you let a MIDlet continue to run in the background, you should take care to minimize any execution so that you do not unnecessarily execute code that drain battery. If you for example have an animation thread running and let it continue while the MIDlet's in the background, it can drain power rather quickly without doing much good for the user. On the other hand, if you for example would like to periodically check a network connection or similar, it's possible to implement a timer that fires an event at some suitable interval and causes processing only at those preferably short times of execution.
Normally the MIDlets are event driven and consume CPU cycles only when some event needs to be handled.Ē

That article applies to both MIDP 1.0 and MIDP 2.0 and T610, T616, T618, T628, T630, T637, Z600, Z608, Z1010, K500, K506, K508, K700, Z500, S700, V800, P800, P802, P900, P908 and P910.

Without offence, the K800 is just like a programmable calculator and N70 is like a full-blown WinXP computer. In terms of (software) functional capability (except hardware related like camera sensor), the reality is that N70 outperforms K800 in everything.
Iím trying to tell you, that that is not true anymore. It used to be true with Java phones yes, but as I initially said, Java isnít as restricted as most people think anymore. Iím saying that, a Java phone today can do most the stuff a smart-phone can do.
From the start I have agreed with you that ďSymbian OSĒ is better than ďno Symbian OSĒ. But Iím not agreeing with you, and cannot agree with you, that the N70 beats the K800 just because it has Symbian.


Manuel_max
She's buying the K800 today.

Posted by mib1800
mr_lou

Symbian games, and they really donít impress me that much. Name a few examples then

Well, have you try skyforce, cosmic fighters, doom, superminers, alphalt gt or some of the n-gage games?

If you need this advantage or not is another issue.

I think most people would want it if they knew about it. For me I like those that automate my daily routines such as the automatic switching of profile based on event/location. Of course, I also cannot do without my call management software which schedule/filter/record/reject my calls based on events or time period.

would like to periodically check a network connection or similar, it's possible to implement a timer that fires an event at some suitable interval

Even if it can run in the background or use timer, it still doesnt solve anything. Setting your timer too long defeats the purpose and setting it too short results in same problem of battery drain. Correct me if I'm wrong but currently in the K800 there is no way for phone kernel events/messages to filter thru to Java. And Java cannot cooperate or pre-empt or share memory with phone kernel processes.

Iím saying that, a Java phone today can do most the stuff a smart-phone can do.

Let me ask you a question. If Java is so powerful and fully implemented in SE phones, why do you think SE wants to pursue UIQ3/Symbian for its more advanced phones like M600/p990?

Furthermore, support for Java is so varied among manufacturers. K800 may have most extensive support for Java but software developers may just develop for the lowest denomination of Java so as to support as many phones as possible. So it is a chicken and egg problem.

but so far I'll wait.

Frankly, I think it will be a unending wait.


Posted by J-J
regardless of all the features of the N70, the fact it is so slow and the keypad is so un-user friendly renders it pretty useless to me.

I had mine for 3 months before selling it and getting a w800.

if you dont want something that is quick, smooth running and user friendly then go for the N70

Posted by mib1800
J-J

if you dont want something that is quick, smooth running and user friendly then go for the N70

Like I say with the latest firmware N70 speed has improved. Quick is a relative term. For example, if N70 is slower by 0.5-1 sec in opening a message/menu bothers you so much then so be it. But to majority of people they will say you are nit-picking.



Posted by JK
Is Ver 5 the latest software?
Coz it sucks!!! Drops calls looses 3G signal in full 3G coverage, When Memories full the phones very slow, call logs disapear, crappy cam, small buttons, chat applications run slow and freeze etc etc...

N70 here in SA is the worst phone on the market, very popular but crap Nokia SA will give you an N80 if scream loud enough at them!!

But N80 is another story...

Posted by J-J
Quote:

On 2006-08-15 11:32:21, mib1800 wrote:
Like I say with the latest firmware N70 speed has improved. Quick is a relative term. For example, if N70 is slower by 0.5-1 sec in opening a message/menu bothers you so much then so be it. But to majority of people they will say you are nit-picking.



The speed alone may be nit-picking but coupled with poor build quality and not being user friendly then for me personally it adds up to not being a very good phone.

Another thing with the speed is that the phone doesnt have the ability to catch up with you.
Once you have been using the phone for a while you learn where everything in the menu system is, unfortunately you have to load each menu individually as it wont allow you to press the menu options and then the phone catch you up.

Everyones requirements for a phone are different and therefore different phones will suit different people, i can only comment on the experiences i have had with with my requirements.

Posted by mib1800
j-j

with poor build quality

I think you r not being objective. Other than the camera slide, the rest of N70 is solidly built with high quality plastic. The keypad is firm and nice and dont emit loud sound like the K750/800. And it doesnt have the infamous SE crap joystick that breaks very often.

Another thing with the speed is that the phone doesnt have the ability to catch up with you.

hmmm.... How is it that mine can. Say I press menu-key, 3 and 1 keys quickly the phone will catch up and start the prog at position 1 in within submenu located at position 3.




[ This Message was edited by: mib1800 on 2006-08-15 12:03 ]

Posted by mr_lou
mib1800
Well, have you try skyforce, cosmic fighters, doom, superminers, alphalt gt or some of the n-gage games?
Iíve tried Doom, but not the other ones, but as far as I know ďSky ForceĒ exists for J2ME as well.
Doom is a 3D game ported from the good old DOS PCs, and with the 3D APIís for J2ME you can make much better 3D games than that one.
N-Gage is another thing. Itís built for games and canít be compared in my opinion.

Even if it can run in the background or use timer, it still doesnt solve anything. Setting your timer too long defeats the purpose and setting it too short results in same problem of battery drain. Correct me if I'm wrong but currently in the K800 there is no way for phone kernel events/messages to filter thru to Java. And Java cannot cooperate or pre-empt or share memory with phone kernel processes.
Yes, it will use battery (duh), but since K800-battery has about twice the amount of talk time as an N70 has, Iím sure K800 can manage.
Iím still not saying that a J2ME device is better than or equal to a Symbian device, but since you turned this thread into a discussion about how many things J2ME can do that Symbian can do, I am telling you. Correct, you need an Operating System to have Operating System abilities. I am not saying that a J2ME device can do everything a Symbian device can do. I am saying that a J2ME device can do most stuff a Symbian device can do.
It was at this point the thread was turned into a debate about how many things J2ME can do that Symbian can do. And ofcourse J2ME cannot do OS stuff, but it can do many things similar to OS stuff, and the average user pretty much doesnít care what happens on the technical level. Infact, the average user (excluding geeks here) would probably prefer the J2ME device because itís simpler and safer to use (virus and such).

Let me ask you a question. If Java is so powerful and fully implemented in SE phones, why do you think SE wants to pursue UIQ3/Symbian for its more advanced phones like M600/p990?
I can find a bunch of reasons.
1. As I say (and this is the last time Iím repeating myself): ďSymbian OSĒ is not the same as ďNo Symbian OSĒ. I am not claiming J2ME devices to be just as good as Symbian OS devices!. There are people who needs a phone with an Operating System, and Symbian is a cool OS. Iíd pick Symbian any day over Windows CE (though Linux could be fun to try also).
2. Most people buying a Symbian OS device really doesnít need it. They could have settled for a J2ME device, but they donít know, so they want it. Thus we have a demand.
3. Fashion statement. ďI have the latest SE Symbian phone. Iím cool, because people say Symbian is coolĒ. . o O ( Thought I havenít got the slightest clue what a SIS file is or how to install games)
4. A firm could need a Symbian device, because they need more freedom at a technical level. Maybe because they have developed an application in C++ for their former Windows CE PDAís which they now want to port for Symbian (because they feel Windows CE and Microsoft are assholes for some reason).

Furthermore, support for Java is so varied among manufacturers. K800 may have most extensive support for Java but software developers may just develop for the lowest denomination of Java so as to support as many phones as possible. So it is a chicken and egg problem.
That could very well be the case, but itís not what I see is going on at the developer forums Iím looking at. Typical developers develop for multiple devices at the same time using pre-processors in the source. Further more, these APIís are not exclusive anymore as they were in the beginning (Nokiaís UI only being present on Nokia phones and Siemens game API only being present on Siemens phones). Today they share the same APIís.
I donít know how developers develop for Symbian, but as far as I know there are currently 6 versions of Symbian, and they are not compatible. With J2ME all MIDP1.0 stuff also works on MIDP2.0 phones.


J-J
if you dont want something that is quick, smooth running and user friendly then go for the N70
That was also the conclusion of my girlfriend. Sheís even a Nokia user, but when she tried out both phones in the shop it didnít take her long to decide the K800 was best.



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