Posted by axxxr
Seems like more and more military personal are standing up against U.S aggression in Iraq,RAF Flight Lt. Malcolm Kendall-Smith,who said "U.S. actions in Iraq were on par with those of Nazi Germany".(what i've said all along).
He challenged the legality of the war in Iraq, and he was sentenced to eight months in prison and dismissed from the service...I salute his courage and bravery for speaking out!
Flight Lt. Malcolm Kendall-Smith has also said that "I have evidence that the Americans were on a par with Nazi Germany with its actions in the Persian Gulf,".
He's been punished for speaking the TRUTH and standing up for what he and many of us know is right.
The Pentagon says more than 5,500 servicemen have deserted since the war started in Iraq.
CNN Article
Flight Lt. Malcolm Kendall-Smith
Posted by Mad_Bob
Un beleivable, what happened to freedom of speach, and also things like this just add to the problems that the governments already face with the situation.
And how can anybody justify this imprisonment.
Posted by Glenny
it makes me more suspicous to the USA as it shows there covering up something
Posted by axxxr
Freedom of Speech..whats that?....freedom of speech only applies apparantly when you want to slag off someones religion.
Posted by Lynx69
Well i guess in the military no ones views count. We have freedom of speech, but for the people fighting for the country, there views are hidden from us.
It can't be justified.
Im sure the government are clever enough to state to the forces that they have no right to say these sort of things etc etc of they are in a lot of trouble.
But at least some of them stand up for what they really beleive.
Posted by PeterKay
Total crap justice.
Posted by upper
Aaahhh man i cant believe no one knew that there is no such thing as real freedom of speach. havent you guys heard of double standards? the bush administration is full of it. If it was for the real democracy in the states the american troops wouldnt of been in iraq in the 1st place.
Posted by dealer3
nobody reads broadsheets???
if you read the guardian, there was a special report on us serviceman...over 500 have fled to canada, seeking asylum to avoid going on duty back to iraq, when many were asked why, 1 'soldier' said he saw many many acts that were illegal, gruesome and inhumane, he could not go back there for a day...
today democracy seems to mean hypocrisy in the west...its sad
Posted by WelshTom
Under exactly what charge did they jail him? Seems incredibly harsh.
Posted by PeterKay
telling the truth.
Posted by fatreg
Good job mr judge, no really, GOOD job.
Americans are sooooooooo st00pid.
how can a "super power" be soooo st00pid?
fatreg
Posted by PeterKay
Super power 'My Backside'.
Posted by london-uk
The reason given by Flight Lt. Malcolm Kendall-Smith, for not wishing to return to Iraq (he had been on previous tours) was, that he believed the war was unlawful. He could not prove to a legal standard that it was in fact unlawful, therefore his defence failed. It is not to do with a cover-up. The legalities concerning serving military personnel are laid out plainly in statute and relevant precedents. When anyone enters the armed forces, they are fully aware of the consequences if they choose to disobey an order. It is correct that an Officer should always consider the legality of any order they receive. If they choose to disregard an order, on the grounds that they believe it to be unlawful, then the burden of proof (in showing that it is not only prima facia unlawful, but also unlawful within the statutory and common law framework) lies on their shoulders. He was unable to provide persuasive precedent and furthermore he was unable to bring himself within a statutory defence (i.e. by proving that the war is unlawful). The judges had no choice under the Law but to find him guilty. It is all well and good for him to believe that the war is unlawful, but by that very definition he needs to be able to prove before a Court of Law, that it is in fact unlawful - which he could not. This case deals only with the law, anecdotal 'evidence' is irrelevant, personal opinion is irrelevant, the only things that are relevant are statutes and case law - that is what the court concerns themselves with.
People may think the outcome of the trial was 'unfair', but he knew the legal framework he was operating under, and he knew that he would have to provide a legal defence for his actions. The Court could not simply acquit him because popular opinion believed it to be 'the right thing to do', that would have made a mockery of our entire legal system.
_________________
We are not afraid!
[ This Message was edited by: london-uk on 2006-04-22 22:13 ]
Posted by SCORPIONKING1982
| Quote: |
|
reg this guy is a british serviceman sentenced in a british court, nothing to do with america
Posted by fatreg
ooops.
my bad!
almost makes me ashamed to be british!
fatreg
Posted by SCORPIONKING1982
ay I do feel for the bloke, I think the imprisonment is a tad OTT. sure dismiss him, that would happen in any workplace if you refused to do your job but dont imprison him. I reckon theyre sending a message by making an example of him.
Posted by fatreg
yeah a message not to join the RAF!
not the right message i feel.
fatreg
Posted by axxxr
Over 9000 U.S service men refused to serve in in Iraq and have claimed asylum in either canada or other countries to avoid charges and imprisonment.
Posted by maggflodd
Question is: How many fools/cannonfodderunits/familymembersfriendsandlovedones/patriotfascistswithoutreallynoticingorpayingattention will fall for the same bullshit yet again when the USofUnconsciousness attacks Iran and Venezuela. Because of Uranium!!!HaHaHa... I.O.B. anyone!? Iranian Oil Bourse, i.e.
Iran's very smart plan to start trading oil in Euro instead of Dollars (guess what Saddam was planning to do just before Blair'n'Bush decided to do him in?!?!). As IF,ffs, US/UK give a toss about Non-proliferation Treaty
(how could they, selling Nuke parts to Pakistan/India/Israel?)...
So anyway, my dearest... Have been beaten up by cops at no-nukes demos... a good friend crippled etcetcetc and now thanks to the madfolks in USof EY and UK I actually HOPEHOPEHOPE the Iranians build a nice bunch of big bad nukes. Sickening! And, P.S., noone should call Blair Bush's poodle/asskisser etc etc... Blair is evil all by himself and unlike Bush HE does not have a roomtemperature I.Q. as an excuse (lets not forget that he used illegally declared Iraqi no-fly-zones to bomb the shit out of
Iraqi civilians with Mr nice-Clinton long before Bush was even on any election ticket; let's not forget that 6months before the beginning of the last/current Iraq war the UK homeoffice was deporting Iraqi asylum seekers because "Iraq is a perfectly safe place" to condemn you to...
And now I am so p.o.'d because I could go on and on and
OFF I AM...maggflodd
Posted by axxxr
maggflodd welcome to esato.
Very well said.
Posted by maggflodd
Thanks, Londinium!
Oh "duh..."... Nearly got me started again... But that's living in the West of Ireland... You realise a mobile phone forum is more interesting than the entire corporate Irish media landscape... (I happen to be neither
Irish, nor American, nor British, nor Muslim, nor christian, nor , nor, nor...- see, there is so much we are NOT, so how the hoot can being a patriot for accidentally being born in country x,y or z be so... AND here I lost myself
.... (Well, I AM at work as we "speak"... HAVE A GOOD ONE!............................
Posted by BobaFett
the only chance for the us to change its very bad judgement of the whole world lies in the hand of the american nation. nice to see, that some of them finished to live with eyes wide closed and start to realise, that the western times are over ( first shoot then ask ).
Posted by Luke-the-magic-man
When i saw this on the news a few weeks back I think it was I was appauled at being brittish, the guy stands up for what he believes in and I think thats very important these days. How many soliders world wide go to was for no reason? Let alone one they achually believe in. I think that this man should be rewarded, but nt punnished for what he did (i know this would f**k up the forces etc but I think its important if your going to war to beleive in what your fighting for, if you dont then why bother fighting?)?
Posted by scotsboyuk
| Quote: |
|
If one manages to get past the usual rhetoric of these things one will find that this chap wasn't punished for opposing the war, but rather for disobeying orders. The chap in question is perfectly entitled to hold whatever view he likes, whether that be the Iraq war is illegal or whether it be the moon is made of cheese. However, if one joins the armed forces one is expected to carry out orders, that is how the armed forces operate.
The officer had served in Iraq previously and it was last year that he refused to return. At that time British forces were under U.N. mandate to operate in Iraq and also at the invitation of the Iraqi government. Whether the original invasion was illegal or not is therefore not the issue here since there now exists a legal framework for British troops to be deployed there. It would arguably have made more sense for the officer to refuse any participation in the original invasion.
Comparing the U.S. occupation of Iraq to Nazi Germany deserves to be treated with contempt. The Nazi occupation of Europe was barbaric in the extreme and whilst the Americans are not perfect and there have been some awful things happening in Iraq I can assure you that the Nazis were much much worse.
The current insurrection in Iraq would probably have been put down with overwhelming brutality by the Nazis. When Reinhard Heydrich was assassinated in 1942 the Nazis killed over a thousand people in response. All males over the age of 16 in the village of Lidice were murdered and the women and children sent to concentration camps. Some children who 'looked German' were later sent to German orphanges. The village was sytematically detstroyed and all traces of it removed even as far as taking it off maps. Three thousand Jews were sent to the concentration camps. A further five hundred Jews were arrested in Berlin with one hundred and fifty two being murdered as a reprisal.
_________________
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2006-04-24 01:22 ]
Posted by JK
First time I agree with Scots, If he was in the US army there has to be some sort of conduct code document he had to sign and agree to be a slave and follow orders regardless of what they are...
So he got what he got for violating that order... and maybe punished accordingly.
But on the other side, before he even knew what he was getting into, he to taught that he was doing the right thing, and maybe only until he saw what was happening in Iraq and being there in person did his he wake up and realise what he and the us were doing was wrong!
Its like an eppisode of JAG
Posted by maggflodd
... chained to the dream they got you searchin' for...
well hell, I too love to say, "well you fools, that's war then, innit... fool, don't deserve the right to complain... stop whinging and go on killing, go, kill for us and yo' momma...!" But guys, doesn't the debate thus far show one point if nothing else: we are outraged and amend "but he should've known"; and we know recruiters target badly informed, undereducated youths (not just in usa and uk... and that's why Germany even under red/green government wouldn't stop the draft - it's openly discussed in military policy-making circles that draft is good "because more smart personnel caught that way", but bad "because too many critically thinking people in military with draft"... So, where was I... ? Oh yeah, If we can argue about that guy here, feel sorry for the guy, yet give him some blame, yet feel outraged by our regimes punishing guys like him, etcetcetc, HOW THE F#CK can we judge young men or women in iran, iraq, venezuela, northern ireland or bumf#ck texas... REALLY, Impeach the thugs, all of them, then don't vote for some years, impeach them all over again, maybe...maybe then... Or as fight club chuck palahniuk once stated
let the us/uk go really, really fascist, vote for guys like bush'n cheney, get it done and over with, and then... then, in a few decades, and a billion deaths later something good might come out of all this shit...
Righteeyo... Sorry that's me on a Sunday, in the west of ireland, where the only meaningful conversation with a "local" was with my taxman, and O2 shops sell I-pods but no phone better than a k300, and politicians, ALL politicians sold their souls, their jobs and their P.I.N.'s to the us-version of democracy... and ,...(oh just look at esato's supposed ireland-thread, you'll get it then!)
Thanks for letting me let off...
Maggflodd
Posted by axxxr
Kate Hudson, chairwoman of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, said: \"Many people believe the war in Iraq was an illegal war and therefore we would consider he was quite within his rights and it was indeed commendable he believed it was right to stand up to what he considered to be an illegal instruction to engage in an illegal war. We have full sympathy for him and he has our full support. We consider it to be a commendable and moral act.\"
Lindsey German, convener for the Stop the War Coalition, said: \"The majority of public opinion agree this war was not based on international law.\"
Flight Lt. Malcolm Kendall-Smith (quote)
\"I have been convicted and sentenced, a very distressing experience. But I still believe I was right to make the stand that I did and refuse to follow orders to deploy to Iraq - orders I believe were illegal. I am resigned to what may happen to me in the next few months. I shall remain resilient and true to my beliefs which, I believe, are shared by so many others.\"
\"Iraq was the only reason I could not follow the order to deploy. As a commissioned officer, I am required to consider every order given to me. Further, I am required to consider the legality of such an order not only as to its effect on domestic but also international law. I was subjected, as was the entire population, to propaganda depicting force against Iraq to be lawful. I have studied in very great depth the various commentaries and briefing notes, including one prepared by the Attorney General, and in particular the main note to the PM dated 7 March 2003. I have satisfied myself that the actions of the armed forces with the deployment of troops were an illegal act - as indeed was the conflict. To comply with an order that I believe unlawful places me in breach of domestic and international law, something I am not prepared to do.\" \"The invasion and occupation of Iraq is a campaign of imperial military conquest and falls into the category of criminal acts. I would have had criminal responsibility vicariously if I had gone to Iraq. I still have two great loves in life - medicine and the RAF. To take the decision that I did caused great sadness, but I had no other choice.\"
Posted by scotsboyuk
Why not protest when the war started? That was when there was the strongest argument for it being illegal. When the Captain was ordered to go back there was a U.N. mandate for British troops to be there as well as the authority of the Iraqi government.