Posted by Sammy_boy
After a recent thread descended into a faintly amusing but very vitriolic flame war and was locked (found HERE for reference) it has made me rethink my opinions of having the above topics on esato.
They seem to be driving wedges between trusted and respected members who previously got on well. People come to this forum to discuss a common interest - mobile phones, and specifically (though not exclusively)
ones.
It seems that these religous/political threads are causing more grief than good, and some people don't seem to be able to have a rational debate on these subjects without arguments ensuing.
Some people also seem unable to take others' views into account or to agree or disagree. Btw, I am NOT taking sides with any of the parties involved in these past threads, I'm just getting a little fed up of seeing the same old arguments/points/flame wars cropping up frequently, and leaving members falling out with others.
And how does all this look to newer Esatonians? I bet it's put a few off from posting in certain sections of the site, if not totally.
@mods - hope you don't mind me posting this thread, hopefully people can talk about/debate this particular issue without resorting to petty insults or personal attacks.
Posted by scotsboyuk
@Sammy_boy
Well said! I posted a similar thread a while ago, which you can read here.
Past efforts to get rid of them or limit them seem to have failed so one has had to make do and work within them to the extent of offering a balancing counter argument. However, it would be much more preferable if such threads were limited somehow so that we do not have the same sort of arguments we have recently seen (and so that people don't have to endure my gasbag replies
).
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[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2006-03-17 18:45 ]
Posted by slattery69
i ve no objection to these sorts of threads continuing. however if people who are posting start expressing there view point as concrete facts then they have to accept they could be chanllenegd and proven incorrect. perhaps individual posters need to think before they type alittle more.
for example if you said imo america are evil and wrong that to me is foine as its a view point, however to often in these threads i read things like america are evil and worng and we all know it . this to me is someone trying to state a fact, which is 2 diffferent things
if you state a fact you need to back up your fact and if your back up info is incorect then you can in my opinion be shot down and rightly so. a view point i dont believe people should be a ttacked for as this is different
what worrys me about people people claiming view points as facts is we have a range of age groups and cultures on esato (a very good mix in my opinion) and they can be quite easily mislead by these supposed factual statemnets that arent anything but someone expressing a view point.
so to cut a long post short in summary yes for these threads to stay but for the individuals who post in them myself included) a bit more thought before posting as to wether its a view point or a statement of fact
Posted by Sammy_boy
That's the thing, I'm not against these types of thread per se, but the MANNER in which they seem to get conducted, where people don't seem to take others' opinions into account, flame others for disagreeing with them and generally being intolerant to others' points of view.
I'd like to see more intelligent debate, where people can express opinions without getting their head blown off by someone disagreeing, and a bit more empathy and thought going into posting.
Posted by slattery69
i think the problem is when people express an opinion most rational people can accept it, its when people start making staement of facts about there opinion they get called on it and then they get arsey.
the thread you used as an example is a very good example. one party tried to claim there opinion as fact when they were called on the factual side and they could prove it was anything more than a view point it then got into a small flame war.
like ive said post opinions as such and post facts with research backup or run the risk of been called to task.
if we all did that then these discussions could exist
Posted by max_wedge
I agree slattery, more thought should be made by people making blanket claims. Those people need to accept that others will demand coherent arguments, and won't accept a blanket controversial statement from a poster who makes no effort to back up their claims. I myself will persist in an argument until they make some effort to explain their point of view. That in my eyes is what happens when you make statements about things with no backup. You have to expect it. That's also why religious threads often get my blood roiled since many people say something and then say "because my god says so". That's no freakin' argument, that's just bloody-mindedness. So they spoke directly to God? No they just read a book written by humans who spoke to someone who reckoned they spoke to God. So I expect them to give up a little more justification for their statements than "God says so"
I certainly don't mind if someone pulls me up on points of fact or logic, and while I will fight tooth and nail when I feel I am right, I always listen to the other persons argument because while I try to be very careful in my statements, sometimes I'm just plain wrong (hard for me to admit, but there you have it). If peeps could more easily admit error, then many flame wars wouldn't get out of control to start with.
Personally I don't have a problem with flame wars. If a thread descends into a flame war that's just life. Yes it spoils it for the rest of those posting, but it's up to them to tell flamers to pull their heads in.
But ultimately if you don't like the way a thread is going you can leave, simple as that.
Posted by chamak
as a new member in esato i think,
we should talk with each other 'bout everything and anything that goes on life.
BUT
if it makes trouble between the memebers and make them irrational then i guess it's better not to have these kinda topics here, as we've to go to somewhere where there'll b some peace that's made by us, not by politicians
i hate ALL of 'em. the world would b far better w/o them. 
Posted by Jim
Actually I'm not against it, it's more the fact that sometimes they popup for no reason at all. Sometimes they look as propaganda than a real discussion, the thread of reference is a good example and should be banned as it has no purpose at all than to grow the hate against the US.
Another example: threads with anti US is allowed here and I respect that and the point of view from the poster but what happens if I post an "anti islam" (for example, don't take it seriously) thread ? ...
Only solutions: warnings like on the IPB forums.
Posted by Sammy_boy
It at the moment is a very sensitive subject this, so I'm hoping this doesn't descend into a flame war.
These subjects like religion and politics seem to have a lot of high running emotions and opinions in them, and they are dividing members who have previously gotten on - I'm talking in general here and not about recent threads.
Posted by max_wedge
I see what you are saying, but I must also mention, I have been in a flame war or two myself, but I actually still like and respect those I've had flames with. For example good old mib1800, who seems to have left for greener Nokia pastures, was very dogmatic, but he stuck with you through a flame and eventually you could get him to see reason, and even if he didn't agree he would grudgingly admit you "might" be right. He also was prepared to give reasons for his position, so I actually have lot of respect for mib1800, despite his often anti-SE stance. (I might even get flamed for saying that
) No matter how much we argued, mib never insulted me personally. It came close (on both sides) but ultimately neither of us was so adamant about our position that we thought it worth putting anyone down over.
When a thread descends into unreserved name calling, I think Mods need to step in and take action. Anything else is just healthy argument
Posted by axxxr
Sammy_boy you do have have a good point but we have all been here before with a similer discussion.The problem is not with the pollitical/religious debates but the members who can't respect the posters/members viewpoint,and lower themselves to petty insults,its also rather dissapointing when the insults come from older well respected members.Like someone said the older members such as ourselves are supposed to set an example for the newer ones.
I'm quite obviously against banning any kind of free speech and debate and would encourage respectfull open opinions from all members,I don't see why we need to ban certain kind of topics?..just because some member does'nt have the ability to make a respectfull comment without having to resort to insults and mocking the poster..If anything that member should be locked out of that discussion..But having said that most topics of discussion are decent and respectfull and the vast majority of members can carry themselves in a debate without having to make petty comments.
I think the nature in which such topics are discussed needs to be addressed and not the actual Topics themselves.
Posted by *Jojo*
As they say . . . PEOPLE 'quarrel' / HAVE different opinions if they START talking about:
1. Religion
2. Politics
3. Money
4. Woman
5. Food
and the LATEST in the survey is:
6. Nokia Fones !
Posted by dave_uk
I'm all in favour of a complete ban. It's not a question of free speech - it's a question of an inappropriate "forum" for such subject matter.
They are always posted by the same people, usually, as has already been identified, as opinion marketed as fact. No wonder it's the same people defending their right to free speech. I believe a certain Abu Hamza thought he had the right to spout vile, racial hatred-inciting vitriol, using the same justification. He ended up where he belongs, and where all those who attempt to stimulate the same sort of feelings, however clever the disguise, also belong, IMHO.
Now:
"I love Nokia more than life itself" - Discuss.
Posted by Pradhika
Such discussions are like itching spots on our skin. Enjoy while scratching which paves the way to sensation of burning.
Posted by dave_uk
What a great analogy!
Posted by axxxr
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Its not an inappropriate \"forum\" as you so describe when the disucssion is in the \"Mobile Free\" Area...thats why that part of the forum exsists.
Maybe its the same people who make most of the posts,but the fact is anyone can post what they like anytime (everyone is free to do so).Its usually the people who have a problem with truth and reality that don't like these sort of topics in the first place.
So let me get this straight...your useing Abu Hamza as an example,a man who incited murder with members on esato who like to discuss Religion/Polictics..I know some are desperate this is going to new lows...I can't recall anyone here ever inciteing Murder,Hatred and Violence?..you must have been going to the wrong forums mate!
I personally think anyone who tries to suppress open and free debate regarding the injustice in the world needs to be locked up.
Posted by *Jojo*
Yeah, Pradhika just said the right phrase I guess . . .
Posted by max_wedge
the bottom line is if people don't like the subject matter, or those who only come here for phone info, simply do not have to be involved in these debates.
Why read a thread and then complain about it's content? The thread topic is plain as day, so why go there if you can't handle it?
Posted by axxxr
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If you think the thread of reference was to grow hatred against the U.S then you thats the way you view it,its entirely your opinion but that doesn't in no way mean you are correct.
At the same time your contradicting yourself by saying that anti U.S threads are someone else's point of view and you respect that?..make up your mind,because it does'nt make any sense.
If you post a Anti-Islam thread then that is offensive and wrong because you are attacking someones belief...I don't see how anti U.S threads and Islam have any relation?...Attack on political viewpoints is universally acceptable as is the case with U.S,but religion is out of bounds.
Posted by axxxr
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Well said,...and thats what i've always been saying in the past,...if you don't like the subject matter,just stick to the mobile threads as is what most members come here to do.
I never read the threads i don't like the titles of,so why make unnecessary comments?..no need for it really.,unless your deliberate intention is to flame.
Posted by amnesia
It's in my opinion that it is not an issue about whether religious or political topics cause rifts between members, but rather an issue where various members treat their own opinion as fact.
Nothing aggrivates me more when people refuse to accept another side, or at least try to empathize.
I wish forums had "small minds" detectors which automatically prevented members from posting in threads they can't contribute constructively to.
Posted by *Jojo*
I guess this THREAD will OUTBEST all of the other ones having discussed matters re: RELIGION and POLITICS !
Posted by Sammy_boy
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That's how it should be! I've recently been in a bit of a flame war with someone, and was helping them in another thread at the same time!
My problem, as I say, is not against these types of threads, but some peoples' behaviour in them. The problem with religion and politics is that some people have very set and rigid views on them, and won't budge for anything or anyone, and if anyone questions their beliefs on a subject they get very annoyed and start hurling personal insults at them. It's that reaction I don't like, rather than simply acknowledging your differences and agreeing to disagree, rather like Max and Mib1800 did.
Posted by shaliron
Sorry about breaking the chain of discussion here, but I was reading on wikipedia about some pretty bad flame wars happening a few years back. Is that the example that you guys are referring to?
Anyway, being pretty new here, the worst fight on esato that I've read up to now would be the one where vanquish unlimately left. That was the one where us guys were discussing a change of theme for esato. That was pretty ugly and I can see what you guys mean when you say that you don't want personla attacks on each other.
Posted by max_wedge
well that's interesting gossip - never realised that was the thread that was the cause of vanquish's demise :-0 .
I did see fallout from the issue result in some vandalism of Esato's wiki - fortunantely it was able to be rebuilt from history.
@Sammy_boy, re: "That's how it should be! I've recently been in a bit of a flame war with someone, and was helping them in another thread at the same time!" Classic example mate
Exactly what I'm talking about.
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[ This Message was edited by: max_wedge on 2006-03-18 14:50 ]
Posted by Jim
Now we are just wasting our time as this has been discussed before and nothing will change as we have a freedom of speech here (unless laffen change the rules), so live with it !
Btw, sorry Axxxr I won't reply to the quotes you made on my first post as it's an endless discussion and I'm tired of that
Posted by max_wedge
Truth is it's one big happy family here most of the time
Like all happy family's there is the occasional feud or falling out
You get that.
Posted by absinthebri
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Oh, the irony!
Posted by scotsboyuk
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That's a good point you make. I think it's all too easy to say that one should respect others' opinions and make claims regarding freedom of speech, but I think that certain fundamental practicalities are being ignored. If one is intent upon posting controversial material then one should expect a response. If one wishes to discuss controversial issues then one should be prepared to defend one's views if they are challenged and not balk when substantiating data is required to either support one's own line of argument or to disprove another's.
It is all very well talking the talk and proclaiming that one should be free to discuss this that and the next thing, but if one is unable or unwilling to engage in reasoned debate and to support one's arguments when called upon to do so then one should not bemoan others challenging one's views and showing errors in them. If one cannot stand the heat then one should not be in the kitchen.
Posted by solidsingh
if people dont like policitcs and religion threads then dont read em, thats my one line summary
Posted by absinthebri
That's two lines, singh.
Posted by solidsingh
i meant sentence
Posted by tranquil
Topics on touchy subjects are a nightmare to us moderators.
It be ploitical, religious, gay or any other type of topic where different views on sencitive subjects ae discussed.
First of all;
Writing on a forum is not the same as discussing something face to face with another person. In real life these discussions might have been perfectly suttle all the way through because of facial expressions and bodylanguage underlining what you mean. You say something ironic, in real life, and blink your eye or do some sort of gesture to make sure the other part realize you are.
In a forum these underlining gestures are replaced with smilies. Not everyone use them the way the are ment and in the heat of the moment it's easy to forget they even exist. Some members are good at using italic, bold and CAPITAL letters as well as smilies to replace body language (and some overdo th use of it...) whilst others never use any of the above.
There is plenty of room for missunderstanding each other in a written discussion and I believe several flame wars was started due to that.
2nd: Modreating a topic on any of the subjects mentioned above mean a pile of PMs demanding an exlpenation for doing what was done; removing a post or two, locking the topic or even removing it, and in worst case senario banning one or two members. It's a real pain in the but sometimes having to explain obvious things when people don't want to understand.
Another funny thing is that when we lock a topic like that there is allways one or two members sending a PM to have it unlocked for a few minutes to get the last word...
Personally I dislike topics like we discuss here, but they seem to have found their place in the Mobile Free Zone.
As Axxxr says; As long as they are in that forum, but they allways seem to turn in to a flame war and end up getting locked all for the same reason; Lack of respect to other peoples' views and beliefs.
Posted by absinthebri
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I think it's more correct to say some posters seem incapable of hearing any view contrary to their own or treating other posters with respet.
Other posters are able to deal with the most complex and subtle of issues with sensitivity and respect.
Posted by tranquil
That is, kind of, what I meant to say; It only takes one to flip the boat.
Posted by JK
So its "to be" then??
Posted by max_wedge
Hey 786BKR, you don't mind a good shit fight do ya? I know I don't mind
My vote is "to be"
Posted by soulframe
I agree with various views in this thread, if you don't like a thread don't get involved (unless you really want to stir things up). Some people are natural talkers and it's only in their character to defend their beliefs. Respect other peoples views even if is a total opposite of your. DON'T be quick to anger (i'd rather people be witty and humorous with their arguments even if it is a serious topic) But the biggest thing I don't seem to understand is when people back up what they say with so called 'facts'. What makes a fact a fact, what makes an opinion an opinion? What is the truth? At the the end of the day all I can say is that I think that it facts/truth/evidence is whatever an individual FEELS is right to them. To me there's no difference between an article/speech/quote sourced from FOX News/CNN/BBC or 'some website' they both have bias and can contain truth and lies. The only thing I suggest to people is don't just say 'that's impossible' or 'what a load of bollocks' you take all available information and then think about it, then when you have a viewpoint that you feel comfortable with you can start discussing things.
Posted by slattery69
well when i say back up your so called facts with facts i mean using news web whatever as long as it s got credence.
to often in these types of threads people post there opinions as facts when opinions aint necessarly facts.
like i said before if people want to postan opinion make sure others know if your claiming facts support your facts with evidence and be prepared for your facts to be challenged if they are in accurate.
at the end of the day that should nt be to hard for people to get a grip of.in fact its the same few in most of these threads that seem to spoil it for the rest
Posted by PeterKay
I personally think it's good to have such threads just to see what everyone's opinion is on such matters. These threads to some may feel unwanted in a mobile phone forum but the mobile phone free zone needs to be filled up somehow.
Posted by tranquil
As I said, I'd preffer the Mobile Free Zone to be filled up with other topics than religious discussions, but I see no way out of the fact that they are here to stay.
My wish is though, be respetctfull to other members views on the matter and understand thet when we find that they have gone far enough they will be locked.