Posted by vanquish
Oh my god!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4606002.stm
Posted by p900 lover
Again?
This happened last time round too
Posted by axxxr
Yeh thats happened before aswell,,I believe a few years ago about 1500 people died in a stampede.
Posted by *Jojo*
I FEEL that human lives are FEED to this ritual every year . . . just like those rituals in the EARLY years, where they OFFER dead animals and even humans to their GODS when celebrating ! we may NOT like it, but LOOKS like this has been a perennial PRACTICE . . .
Posted by vanquish
how stupid can one get?
Posted by axxxr
Its not about being stupid.....The Hajj is the most unique religious event in the world...Millions converge into one city every year.and most of the worshippers that attend have waited their whole lives for this...the excitement is to much for some i suppose and they can hurt in the process or killed in this case.
Posted by kk.226
It's happened before, and it'll continue to happen. Everyone's aware of the risks when they go, but they choose to anyway, so it's entirely up to them... no use complaining it's not going to stop anything.
These are religious people, following their belive and paying a visit to Hajj and doing what they do... let them get on with it.
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Posted by slattery69
also for muslims to die on hajj means automatic entry into heaven as well.so for the believers its not all bad
Posted by vanquish
thats just madness
Posted by *Jojo*
We also have ONE like this here in Manila. Early this week (or was it last week
) 2-3 devotees DIED during a stampede. It was held in Quiapo church when the Black Nazarene was 'toured' out of the church . . . It was said that just simply touching the 'image' you will be healed of your sickness etc. etc.
Posted by Gigs
Beliefs don't need to make sense to everyone vanquish, just to those that have them.
People run with the bulls, here we use electric fences, so I don't think thats completely sane either.
Posted by max_wedge
I agree with vanquish. I'm not dissing the religion, in fact I don't think the deaths are an intended outcome of the Hajj. I don't think it's true to the principles of their religion to run right over their brothers or sisters in the rush for religious blessing.
Just a tiny little bit of compassion and patience and they could enjoy their religious festival without the deaths.
It's those who are "greedy" to be blessed who cause these deaths. It's no more excusable than deaths from crowd pressure at a football game.
Quote:"The stoning is the riskiest ritual of the Hajj, as worshippers jostle to try to target the stones, often causing weaker pilgrims to fall under foot"
Where is the love and compassion of Allah? Do any of these people really have any idea what it means to love Allah? How can they love Allah when they can't even love eachother. Do they really believe the Koran advocates stampling under the weak in order to recieve Allah's blessing?
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[ This Message was edited by: max_wedge on 2006-01-12 23:44 ]
Posted by *Jojo*
. . . and how about those suicide bombers:
1. in Israel
2. 9-11 incident
Posted by vanquish
im sorry, gigs, jn, but islam is a confusing religion.
i know over 300 muslims that ALL condemn these suicide bombers, yet the suicide bombers claim themselves to be doing the right thing.
in my opinion, Allah has confused muslims and if he is real he needs to do something about it before any more innocent people get killed by idiots.
Posted by JK
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And how is this statement relevant to this thread???
Posted by joebmc
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Well it kind of is. These poor people died by follow there religion and so did the suicide bombers. And I can totally see max_wedge’s point.
This event needs to be organized more.
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[ This Message was edited by: joebmc on 2006-01-13 13:06 ]
Posted by SCORPIONKING1982
What is it about this religion that causes people to be such idiots?
Millions of people congregate to see the pope but I dont remember ever hearing about hundreds of people dying in a stampede then?
Posted by batesie
good point. its mindless and shows religion once again has many bad sides...
Posted by JK
They not dieing on purpose or choosing to die!
It happens, the bridge collapses, gas tanks explode, the Saudi government have lots of security and other processes to stop this from happening but it does.
The stoning ritual does become emotional and the people tend to get carried away and with such big crowds it does get risky... unfortunatly.
The crowds get bigger and bigger everyyear but even though they try and cater for the people it still can end up in disaster. This year it was restricted to 10000 pilgrims (in SA) but 25000 left SA...
Posted by joebmc
Good point about the pope. Have'nt there been almost a million people in the plaza at the time of the papal election?
Posted by mOngga
But they didn't have to move around in hot weather all day, do they? Its not even comparable
Posted by EastCoastStar
okay guys... what happened? what is the ritual?!
i read the article (some) and still somewhat confused about what the ritual it?!
Posted by SCORPIONKING1982
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I from what I read it was nothing to do with the heat so whats your point?
The deaths occured from people being trampled as people rushed to get to whever it was they were going.
Posted by SCORPIONKING1982
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yes there were and probably even more went to see the body of pope john paul
http://www.baltimoresun.com/n[....]83311.story?ctrack=1&cset=true
"Extraordinary security measures were in place in preparation for the pope's funeral tomorrow morning. Millions of pilgrims and hundreds of international dignitaries -- presidents, prime ministers, kings and queens -- were arriving in the largest influx of visitors in the city's history"
"Authorities said perhaps 1 million people were waiting in line when it was closed at 10 p.m. So many people were in line that officials split the crowd into halves -- one channeled on the side streets outside the Vatican walls, the other lined the banks of the Tiber River."
"Officials estimated that 600,000 people arrived in Rome on Tuesday alone, and they were expecting even larger numbers yesterday and today"
"Vatican, Roman and Italian authorities have so far managed the throngs impressively. They have set up tents on the city's outskirts, converted buildings into shelters and have been running extra trains, subway cars and buses to get people around the city"
"Authorities in Rome said they expect the number of pilgrims to exceed the city's population, with perhaps as many as 4 million visitors"
Maybe the Saudi authorities need to manage things better, or maybe the people attending should behave themselves a bit better
Posted by amnesia
@ JN
" I FEEL that human lives are FEED to this ritual every year . . . just like those rituals in the EARLY years, where they OFFER dead animals and even humans to their GODS when celebrating ! we may NOT like it, but LOOKS like this has been a perennial PRACTICE . . . "
what does this mean? You can't relate ritual sacrafice to the Mecca pilgrimage...
The deaths that occur when at Mecca are of course not intentional, it happens because sometimes there is a frenzy and in a densely populated area panic can occur.
@axxxr, you're mistaken. how can 1500 have died last time and then in this article it says 345 died and it's the highest in history?
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Posted by vanquish
@axxxr
stop feeding us crappy facts
however:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4607304.stm
1990
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[ This Message was edited by: vanquish on 2006-01-13 15:03 ]
Posted by axxxr
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How am i feedng crappy facts??....Its not a subject to joke about.
From the Link u just provided which backs my previous statement.
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Posted by 02
@vanquish
I have to disagree with u there brother... Allah made Islam confusing?? its the people... not Allah... and those people who killed themself are NOT Islam... killing urself means.. straight to Hell... they maybe Islam.. but they are the rebel... not the religion Islam.. they might be even secret workers from US or UK... but we are not suppose to know that right..... i'll stop here lets get back to topic.
Goin to Haj n knowing you can get kill is a big thing to think about.. its a risk to take... knowing its the most concentrated source in the world!! 177 countries, millions n millions of Islam goin to a land.. blacks, whites, asians etc.. unite for a common goal... is really a huge thing.. no forces can control such huge masses of people.. howeva it can be done to control... but alot of work is needed to be done n cost too...
Posted by solidsingh
ok chill out guys lets not turn this into a religous argument
Posted by SCORPIONKING1982
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Your right it is people who corrupt and alter religion to their own gains, but then religion has always been about that but those people take it to extremes.
I dont think you can argue the fact that something has to be done about this to control the people, no matter what the cost. The saudi government will no doubt be making a lot of money from that many people coming to the country so they should spend it on ensuring peoples safety. You cant put a price on peoples lives now can you.
Posted by joebmc
Life Should'nt be put at a price. These sort of events should be properly organised and there governments/leaders whoever should foot the bill. There were many people visiting the pope after his death and all formed a queue and all went well.
Posted by whizkidd
A list of the largest historic gatherings of people for a single event:
- In January 2001, a reported 70 million
Hindu pilgrims from around the world travelled to Hindu holy city of Prayaga (also known as Allahabad) in India for the Kumbh Mela, the world's largest religious festival.
- More than 5 million people are reported to have attended the funeral of Pope John Paul II in Rome on 7 April, 2005.
- The 5 February, 1975 funeral of Egyptian singer Umm Kulthum in Cairo drew a crowd in excess of 4 million.
The crowd at the funeral of Egyptian President Nasser in Cairo on 1 October, 1970 was estimated at 4 million. - The funeral of Diana, Princess of Wales at Westminster Abbey, London on 6 September, 1997, drew an estimated 3 million mourners.
- An estimated 2.56 million pilgrims made the annual Haj to Mecca in January, 2005.
- The funeral of C. N. Annadurai, a former Chief Minister of the Indian state of Tamil Nadu, was attended by a record 15 million people.
See Wikipedia
I guess this was just poor crowd management or maybe lack of space...there have been bigger gatherings than this in many places.
Posted by axxxr
You can't compare the death of the Pope with the Islamic Hajj,these two are completely seperate events..The pope ceremonys come very rarely,where as Hajj is practiced every year,and each year the numbers of people attending increase...Like 02 mentioned the stoning ritual gets very intense because most people have been waiting their whole lives to do this..and when it comes to actually doing it their emotions are out of control,with thousands of young and elderly people all crammed into one place coupled with the desert heat it you can see how it can happen...Although i agree that the saudi authorities need to organise this better for the sake of safety.
Posted by teexl
all d same,condolence to d dead..may their soul rest in peace.
Posted by joebmc
Well then surly as this event happens every year they should realise the danger and organise it better. As you said many people have died at this event before so the saudi authorities should have learnt there lesson.
Cant help but think if this exact same event was held else where (say America) it would have a far less record of fatalities
Posted by axxxr
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Yes absolutely thats what i said they do need to organise this much better and put better safeguards in place...The problem Islam is a very strict faith and a lot of people prefer to practice it in the old written way as described in the Quran...A lot of Muslim worshippers believe according to Islam that death is in the hands of Allah and if their time has come to die then thats whats going to happen no matter what,death is inevitable sooner or later anyway...basically rules of Islam described in the Quran say to never be afraid of death and be prepared for it every single day of you life..because you never know when your time arrives..
Americans only believe in the here and now and they value live over anything else,there ideology about God,Life is completely seperate from that of Muslims...Your right though that a event where so many people attended would have been organised differently in america..but you can't really compare Islam and America...two opposites.
Posted by joebmc
I’m not comparing Islam to America, maybe more Saudi authorities to American authorities.
Posted by axxxr
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I know your not...just saying that they way muslims think is far from american..for Americans its all about Material,the here and now...where as for muslims life is a very short journery and test for the eternal afterlife.
Posted by amnesia
it's not really because it's because people want to follow an old written path, but because it's very difficult, only comparison I can think of is the London Underground, it was made a long time ago and it's very difficult to upgrade or update it although they are trying.
Posted by 02
1- thing is... Haj has alot of movement from one place to another.... and i mean alot from point A-B-C-D so on.... and these movement is movement by the masses... its like moving the people from a whole state in a way... its not a something like any occasion where u can go n just watch... like a live concert, feneral, etc... Thats the big difference between any large festival or practise this world have.. and control a movement and controlling a crowd is a different thing..
2- how can i put this... one part of the practise is throwing stones at the devil.... (and i mean a real devil.. to the naked eye its just a huge rock we are throwing at, but theres a devil there bein tied and basically tortured by the thrown stones) wat happens when the authorities set up a building like a mini stadium around the area... to control the flow and set up Qs... personally, yes it might save some life but i wont like it.. coz somehow it seems modified and not the actual practise that has been done for ages.... and tats not Islam.. Islam been the same & will remain the same til the end... so in a way.. theres nothing to be done to keep it as original as possible... get wat im saying...
Posted by 02
@amnesia
yea.. i agree. tats a good example
Posted by vanquish
@02
if allah is so holy why doesnt he sort it out?
christianity has been around just as long if not longer, yet we have no misconceptions.
the jews believe one thing, christians believe the other. there are arguments over scripture meanings, but its all essentially viewed the same..
i dont understand. its causing deaths, and its not on
Posted by 02
yea Allah can if decides to...
but then wats the point?? then everyone will convert to Islam coz Allah did something amazing like bringin back life to all hundreads who was dead during Haj... something like that... for example
then pls tell me whats the point??
No point....
Posted by dealer3
many people are commenting on things in this thread with a lack of understanding and knowledge...
Allah is not some religous person...or whatever you think...
Allah simply means God...nothing more, nothing less...it is an arabic word...
Hajj
The fifth pillar of Islam is to make a pilgrimage (Hajj) to Makkah, in Saudi Arabia, at least once in one's lifetime. This pillar is obligatory for every Muslim, male or female, provided that he/she is physically and financially able to do so. Prerequisites for performing the Hajj are to be a Muslim, to be free, to be an adult or mature enough, to be of sound mind, and to have the ability to afford the journey and maintain one's dependents back home for the duration. The reward for the Hajj is nothing less than Paradise.
The Hajj is the ultimate form of worship, as it involves the spirit of all the other rituals and demands of the believer great sacrifice. On this unique occasion, nearly two million Muslims from all over the globe meet one another in a given year. Regardless of the season, pilgrims wear special clothes (Ihram) - two, very simple, unsewn white garments - which strips away all distinctions of wealth, status, class and culture; all stand together and equal before Allah (God).
The rites of Hajj, which go back to the time of Prophet Abraham who built the Ka'bah, are observed over five or six days, beginning on the eighth day of the last month of the year, named Dhul-Hijjah (pilgrimage). These rites include circumambulating the Ka'bah (Tawwaf), and going between the mountains of Safa and Marwah, as Hajjar (Abraham's wife) did during her search for water for her son Isma'il. Then the pilgrims stand together on the wide plain of Arafah and join in prayers for God's forgiveness, in what is often thought of as a preview of the Last Judgment. The pilgrims also cast stones at a stone pillar which represents Satan. The pilgrimage ends with a festival, called 'Id al-Adha, which is celebrated with prayers, the sacrifice of an animal, and the exchange of greetings and gifts in Muslim communities everywhere.
this can no way be compared to anything else that happens on the face of this earth...nowhere do 2 million people come together, from all over the world....from as far as brazil to china, from australia to asia, black, white, arab, short or tall, skinny or fat, rich or poor, and stand together in two pieces of white cloth, in such a way where you couldnt tell if the man your standing next to is a king or a begger...and this happens every single year....this is a sign of complete universal brotherhood, where people help other people who they dont know, who they have never seen...only a person who goes there and visits knows what true brotherhood is...
anyone read about malcolm x? the fact that only after going on Hajj did he truely know what islam was...
and all this nonsense about people trampling over people to get blessed more etc etc...is all rubbish... as a muslim you are taught that you are only a muslim if you wish on your brother or sister what you would at least wish for youself...no true muslim would ever hurt let alone kill another muslim...
people genrally nowadays run to conclusions too fast, before they even have a slight understanding of anything, people are too quick to criticise....but i can tell you this, if you read into what islam is, not what the papers or the politicians tell u, or whats happens in iraq...but if u read about islam, read what it teaches i can garuntee that a person with even a shadow of common sense would know that this way of lifeis in fact the most beautiful, the most peaceful of them all...
the problem nowadays is that the normal person has been brainwashed so deep, in so many ways, that he doesnt even realise that the bias you have agsinst this way of life is so deep in your minds, that even if all the facts and figures in the world contradicted your thoughts, you still would not believe them...
my advice to anyone and everyone is this...before talking about anything and everything make sure you know and understand what your going to talk about...cause if you dont you will only cause mischief/confusion...verify what your going to say before you say it
heres a small introduction to Islam:
http://www.islamchannel.tv/In[....]troduction.aspx#Main%20Pillars
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Posted by joebmc
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Are all Muslims born and bread in another country (say America) not also American? I mean do they consider them self American Muslims or just Muslims?
Sometimes (please don’t take offence) I get the feeling that Muslims would rather there be only one religion (Islam) and everyone on the earth be Muslim?
Posted by dealer3
Are all Muslims born and bread in another country (say America) not also American? I mean do they consider them self American Muslims or just Muslims?
Sometimes (please don’t take offence) I get the feeling that Muslims would rather there be only one religion (Islam) and everyone on the earth be Muslim?
[/quote]
you see, Islam is a religion constituting a fifth of the worlds population....for every muslim its more than a religion...its a way of life...Islam teaches you absoloutly everything you need to know...
as muslims we are also taught equality...we have been taught that no man is greator than any other...
no white man is greater than any black man, no black man is greater than any white man, no arab is greater than a non-arab, and no non-arab is greater than a arab...the best person is the one who does the most good...
so as a muslim, it doesnt matter what country you come from, or how rich you are...as amuslim you a part of one big family, thats why as a muslim myself, to me my background or anything doesnt matter, all that matters is that i am a muslim...i could explain all day, but simply this is such a unique way of life, that it teaches eqaulity and peace better than any book or law or moral on this earth.
as a muslim we are obliged to tell people about this way of life...but at the end of the day whether you choose to accept it is your own choice...you are responsible for what you do and dont do...
Posted by joebmc
Ok, but would you say the ultimate goal would be to have a Muslim only world?
Posted by *Jojo*
Do Christians celebrate the same event (Hajj) which gathers millions of particpants
I think we only tend to celebrate Jesus' during Holy Week and Christmas Day itself
Posted by brownlad007
Are Non muslims such as myself bad people ? are we going to hell (what you see hell as)
Posted by max_wedge
if we start talking about evangalising one's religion, what about the christians? They can be just as offensive, many many christians believe that their religion is the only "true way", many are no better than hardline muslims.
Whenever any person says "this is the only way, the light, the glory, the only path to god" they exclude anyone with a different view point, even if they are nice about it and don't actually kill anyone over it. That's why I've never felt inclined to follow a religion. I'm a very spiritual person, but I don't have religious bone in my body. THERE IS a difference between spirituality and religion.
Regarding the HAJ, the only problem is that Saudi government hasn't recognised how importanbt the event is to muslims. The are a secular state (virtually) and haven't really accepted that more needs to be done to ensure the safety of participants of the HAJ. They must take billions in income everytime the HAJ comes around, so surely they can do more to ensure a safe time for all who come?