Posted by pankoj_dj
Hi all I am from North Bengal In West Bengal Telecom Circle. I am a new user of Esato. Yaaro Please help me. I am now using BSNL full gprs on my PC with also whole internet on my Nokia 7610. I am now wanna use Artl gprs to the PC bcause at the evening bsnl connection will not available in our town (showing network busy). I tried a lot with airtel live. I do the all process. But no page will open except GOOGLE. it open within a second. I tried to search some. only one time a website was open but then not. is now gprs is available to artl (West Bengal Telecom Circle).
I am success to use full gprs on my Nokia 7610 mobile using two account through Artl connection.
Pl. pl. pl. help me ?
Posted by +GameFreak+
Hi people i have read through this entire thread and found out that majority of you guys are not able to enjoy edge services. I my self being a victim of slow gprs connection of just 48kbps. Where as edge offers speeds of upto 210kbps confirmed. So my friends its high time that we lodge a complain against airtel regarding the partial edge coverage here in india . Since i stay in a remote location wireless net is my only option. And we certainly are being discriminated from those living in major cities. So There has to be a group initiative taken from ourpart my friends. I my self has already sent a complain regarding this to the airtel customer support itself along with my location. . Therefore my humblest request to you all to write to 121@airtelindia.com and please make sure that you write your mobile phone number in the subject area for instant response. Thankyou
[ This Message was edited by: +GameFreak+ on 2007-02-15 11:39 ]
Posted by grease
| Quote: |
|
Umm This could be dangerous!!!
Posted by freworld4u
| Quote: |
|
yeah!!
now it seems bsnl hai paisa vasool !!!!!!!!
wid those 256 KILOBYTES/s of speed ,,it really rocks now!!
btw DHEERAJ unlike i said dat day,,,these sppeds r availbale here also now!!!
Posted by freworld4u
| Quote: |
|
jing any othr way except yf????
at speeds of yf,,u can mirror a site in 1 mth or more,,i think
and dat 2 day and night
& check ur pm 2
Posted by AlanDS
| Quote: |
|
Why dangerous? Its our right to demand the EDGE. I'm a MO user from last 6 months. I'm paying them for their useless 35kbps speed. Whereas our friends in Kerala and Kolkata are getting above 150kbps without paying. I'm going to write a request by tomorrow itself. I'll also add the dynamic ip requirement in that mail. I suggest other users too to do the same. b/w don't post your numbers if you aren't a MO subscriber.
Posted by freworld4u
yup!!!!
its our rht!!!
and alan really,,i think u r at great loss dude!!!
i mean i gave an advice of blowin up dat tower also ,,or just shootin dat tower down,,but seems u r not a darin guy!!!
man do it !!!
thou many will use dat rht ,,if provided,,for other stuff
still its the rht for pepl payin for mo!!!
really it shd be!!!
it shd not be like some towers hav edge and some dont!!
dat really is a big prblem for pepl havin edge enabled cell phones!!!
btw im a GTL LIVE SUBSCRIBER
but still i will do it!!! really!!! not jokin
but without any no in d bottom!!!
_________________
MONEY is the cause of everything Bad in this world ! ! ! ------
So, JOIN ME TO MAKE EVRYTHIN FREE IN THIS WORLD ! ! !
[ This Message was edited by: freworld4u on 2007-02-15 14:07 ]
Posted by zolo
Hi pals after a looooong time. . . Nice to see you all exist here. . . Till now without giving up. . Any way i completely agree with "game freak" its our damn right guys. . Wake up. , ! Especially to MO subscribers like me. . . Its the responsibility of airtel to provide quality services to us. . . We aren't paying to make airtel happy are we. . . Even though i get EDGE connection through an indirect method. . . I too once was a victim of slow gprs. . . So i know how hard it is to be an airtel gprs subscriber. . . And @grease why dangerous mann . . .? Are they gonna kill you or what. . . . I personally am gonna write to them this instant. . . And so should everyone. . . .
Posted by fun2sh
yeah GAMEFREAK is right. its our right. we all should flood Airtel with our emails and msg untill they take a good quick action. 1000s of people who are readin this thread Plz start this mission. JAAGO INDIA JAAGO
Posted by grease
it doesnt make real sense to give them our phone nos. and before we demand anything we should spread this idea to other forums as well.
Posted by grease
it doesnt make real sense to give them our phone nos. and before we demand anything we should spread this idea to other forums as well.
Posted by grease
it doesnt make real sense to give them our phone nos. and before we demand anything we should spread this idea to other forums as well.
Posted by +GameFreak+
hi friends,
firstly i would like to thank alands,freworld,zolo and fun2sh for your support. the more the complaints we file in the better will be their response. i have learnt this lesson guys. if we sit here and do nothing then nothing will be possible.i have already spread this to other forums as well as grease suggested and currently getting good response from them.
the reason why i told you to write your phone number in the subject place is because for airtel to verify whether we are definitely their subscribers or not. only then they will consider it.
how ever i do suggest that non MO or NOP subscribers need not post their phone numbers if they so wish
heres the latest update i received from them via email
"Dear Sir,
Greetings from Airtel !!!
At Airtel every time you write to us/ talk to us we see an opportunity to serve you better.
We would like to inform you that we have forwarded your feedback to the concerned department.
We believe that your continued support and feedback will enable us to serve you better in future.
Trust the above is in line with your request .
For any further clarifications, please get in touch with us at 121@airtelindia.com.
Warm Regards,
Customer Service Delivery,
AirTel, TamilNadu"
now lets wait and see what happens. lets hope for the best.
Posted by grease
Sorry for the multiple posts... Sometimes posting from the mobile phone can be tricky.
Posted by jack-spicer
[ This Message was edited by: jack-spicer on 2007-09-04 15:03 ]
Posted by jack-spicer
[ This Message was edited by: jack-spicer on 2007-09-04 15:03 ]
Posted by zolo
LOL jack nice experience with cc. . . See guys the only solution for this is to repeatedly send them until they take some action LOL i have already sent them 7 complaints by now. . I have even programmed my outlook to send them every morning. . .Next solution is to bomb these base station towers as suggested by freworld. . .Yo! fre get some heavy artillery mann. . . Lets show them what is the difference between gprs and edge. .
Posted by jack-spicer
[ This Message was edited by: jack-spicer on 2007-09-04 15:03 ]
Posted by zolo
Very true jack. . . . Some times i even think that the amount they spend on these useless commercials would be more than enough to upgrade the entire network in india to edge and even 3g. . . . You know they spend crores just for producing a single commercial. . . And what more just to telecast an ad in sony max or star plus or any leading medias they will have to shell out a whopping 2lakhs per second. . . A 10 sec ad will make it 20lakhs. . . And imagine the number of times they repeat this 24/7. . . . These bastards dont have any value for money. . . . . Atleast they made sharukh khan twice as rich lol . . . . They are only focussed on services which give them greater revenue. . . They totally neglect data services to full extent. . . . Its sad to know that in the end we are the ones who suffer. . . . I am not sending complaints to them thinking that they will take action. . . . I know they won't. . . . My main intention is to piss these guys off. . . . . Yaar forget about these taking about these idiots is just a waste of time. . . Btw jack why no 6630 in your place. ,? Its still available in india dude. . .?
Posted by jack-spicer
[ This Message was edited by: jack-spicer on 2007-09-04 15:03 ]
Posted by Kmax
hey guys im from delhi...im using NOP.
i jst got this
latest version of JRE.which was on page 5
http://jdl.sun.com/webapps/download/AutoDL?BundleId=10343
how can i use it.??
can any1 tel me wat do i hav2 to downloads file larger then the limit! i think its 3mb.
can plz help me???
reply ASAP
Karan
Posted by hac_king
@jak-spicer wellcome dude... long time to see u,,,,
bdw here edge not vailable in haryana yet..
and if hy plans to do then my city would b last 4 sure.. coz they'll launch
fist in big cities.. thn mine nd yaar moreover my set is a non-edge set
(k500i) then no way of gtting edge..
nd abt airtl cc u r 100% rite..
take my exmple.. all knws airtel had launchd google search in there live
portal for testing purpose n close after a while..
mene vese hii cc me call kark rsn pucha.. then madm says
kyaaaaaaaaaaa????????????????????????
sir aap live se google access karrhe the???????
esa to nhi ho skta shayd uss time hamare system me koi prb. hogi? vese sir apko gar mb me net access krna he to apko btana chaungi k aap nop service activate krani uk rent ............. blah blah,,,,,,,,,,
i cut the call ...... nd thougt that i shud call to any guy... so after sometime i
have called them again...
now ya sir kahiye ... sir me ye jnana chata hu k artl ne jo apni liv portal me
googl srch ki facility di thi vo 2 dino se chal ni rhi he to sir vo close kar di gi he ya koi tech. prb. he??
,,,, SIR apko koi gltfehmi hui he... airtel ne esi koi fcility avail ni krayi...
now i got irritatd n scold him r u realy a gprs cc executive.. he told wat hppn
sir? mene kha tumhe itna b nhi pta artl ne pichle dino apne live prtl me google srch ka ka parhaar itne jor-shor se kiya , internet me magzines me . nwspaprs me chapa???? khta sir baat esi he k jo ap google chala re the """"vo hmare servers me koi prb thi""" lkin ab vo thik kar li gi he agr apne net access krna he to hum1 mo naam se srvice provide krate he.. u shuld subscribe to tht n blh blh....................../////////
now i have no wrds for im n said. thax sir 4 ue valuable info...
bhen k takke saale ga**uoo ko iss baat ka b ni pta he k unki compny ne koi googlesrch naam ki srvice shuru kii thi.... kar lo duniyaa muthi mee...
disgusting.....
saalo koi airtl cc agar ise pdrh he maa k l***0 chullu har paani me dub mroo........
Posted by enli
I m new to the community . Hi then
Can any1 plz tell me current settings & howto to use free GPRS on phone & pC?
Thanks a lot
EdiT: If any1 has k310i . What speeds u getting ?
[ This Message was edited by: enli on 2007-02-16 18:31 ]
Posted by freworld4u
@jack spicer
bhai sahb kahan ho?????
aapke "darshan" badhe mehnge ho gaye hain!!!!
kahin koi nokia 1100 ko nokia 6630 main conversion ki techniques to nahi dhund rahe??
@all
yar gtel cc's ki to baat hi na karo yar!!!
takin to them is like ramming ur head into a hippo!!
i hav more than DAT,,,
MORE Great talks to tell u abt them!!
and if u hera them u will laugh also and then weep also
dat who recruited these pepel into ccare when even they dont know abt word gprs!!! forgt abt edge!!
i m not lying man,,onec a gtel cc asked me in reply whats gprs??? there is not such thing !!!
oh god!!
dat time thought of screwing dat person online thru cell only,,,via radio waves !!
se yar,,these cc's just r of no use!!!
i m tellin u,,,they cant do except changing ur "hello tunes etc and other blah --blah stuff""!!!
and i think they r also directed to some extent by the higher officials ,,the pepl headin the customer care to not forward unnecesary compliants upstream ,,if they dont understand them themselves!!
bt mainly they hav fixed pre maid answers if front of them 4 pepl like us lke
----system main kuch time ke liye prblm tha
----aapke cell phone main problem hai
-----apki settings theek nahi hain
-----aap kisi dusre ke phone main try kijiye
------aapki compliant is noted and will be forwarded
& checked into in 48 hrs ---may be thier 48 hrs is 48mths?? go dknows
-----we will contacnt u,,,nevr do dat!!!!
many other f**kin answers!!
& not o froget dat there ccs are nothing !!!
they r just graduated pepl & even non graduated gettin 4-6k!!!
i meet many boyz here in a cafe who r workin in call centers !!
even in callcentersof forign firms and attendin forignn calls,,really
and they dont really hav iota of basic knowlegde abt computers etc
they r just taught a bit and after dat they just update themselves in tid bits !!
dats all!
REAGRDIN COMPLAINTS !!!!!!!
the only option if u really want 2
bcoz i also doubt dat they will go for changes on compliants dat too emails etc!!!
they earn money many other ways pepl
they dont care for such mails!!!
THERE R TWO OPTIONS ONLY!!! WHAT I THINK!!!
ONE OPTION IS TO shoot at the receptor of d tower wid any of a simple revolver in bit dark and then
COMPLIANT TO THE "HEAD OF OPERATION AND MAINTANENCE"AT THE HEAD OFFICE IN UR CITY
and do take A ONGWITH SOME PEPEL LIKE UR FRENDZ AND AT LEAST 1-2 ELDERLY
THAT
ur tower is not workin from mornin and customers r gettin so much problem IN UR AREA!!!
--ALSO DAT THEREW WAS MANY PRBLEMS B4 ALSO
---of calls -and aslo of gprs
--THAT GPRS SERVICES R TOO BAD IN UR AREA!!
---THAT THERE WAS NOT EDGE ENABLED AND DAT U HAD SO MANY TIME FORWARDED COMPLAINTS TO THIER CC'S ETC ETC!!!
----THAT THEY WERE NOW THINKIN TO TALK ABT SERVICES IN THIER AREA TO HIS HEAD I.E THE MAIN CHIEF CONTROLLER OF UR CITY!! (this wil DEFINITELT MOUNT PRESSURE ON DAT Op. &M HEAD)
----DAT PLZ HELP IN THESE ALL TO D EARLIEST!!
OTHER OPTION IS ,,IF U R NOT SO GUTSY,,,and cant shoot dat,,
just go along with some pepl and do the 2nd half of compalin !!!
DAT IS THE MAIN PART!!!!
i hav tried dis for some f**kin Gsnlbrad band problem a year back!!
and I THINK U PEPL MUST HAV HEARD HOW GRAET GSNL PEPL ARE!!!
THIER CC'S R GREAT AND THIER OFFICERS R 2 GREAT,,BARRIN A FEW TOP ONES,,ON D BASIS OFWHICH IT IS WORKIN 2 SOME EXTENT!!
& regardin lev that operator funda,,
spicer bhai kitne log hamare jaise sochte hain
very very very few!!
say max imum 100-200
300 not more!!!
almost all who use these tricks and also hu use it after payin for services like mo,,, generally think yar ,,,
"its better than nothing" i.e if they lev dat operator!!!
bcoz d latter pepl need those services definitely!!
and other operators hav thier own shortcomings!!!
ITS INDIA,,,here there is "ANDHE LOGON MAIN KAANA RAJA" MR GTEL!!
so these opertors ven wont luk if they loose 10000 mobile subscribers in 1mth !!!
they add up to dat and juice//loot the other new subscribers which fall into thier trap!!
[ This Message was edited by: freworld4u on 2007-02-16 21:31 ]
Posted by freworld4u
@ jack spicer
ya yar seems nokia 6630 is unavalable in market!!
at my place the priority dealer said its production is over!
and now just old ones r circulating!!!
can some bdy else confirm this!!
was a gud phone,,,thats why nokia tok it away!!
he also said nok 6600 has also ben stopped in production!!!
Posted by se7an
guys, now there is a problem with gtel free gprs, i got very slow speeds except morning times. we need to find a solution to increase the speeds.
And guys why u are struck with nokia, use samsung, i use samsung x700 (edge enabled)and get 15kbps download speed.
Posted by jack-spicer
[ This Message was edited by: jack-spicer on 2007-09-04 15:03 ]
Posted by jack-spicer
[ This Message was edited by: jack-spicer on 2007-09-04 15:04 ]
Posted by se7an
jack, its possible to select and edge and ordinary gprs tower on samsung x700. i do that. when i bought samsung x700, some websites say it have edge and some say it's not. I searched the net and and find a code to enable edge on samsung phone. In samsung x700 EDGE is in the name of EGPRS. when you select EGPRS the phone automatically select the EDGE tower near u. i tested it and got worked. and my Russian friend's also confirm it. If you flash your phone u will see all the towers near u and get their singnal strenth. Look at the picture,
Top left corner of the above picture shows 6 colums. In each colum there are some green bars. these bars are indicating singnal strenth of nerarest 6 towers. And it's possible to view Network code, country code, Location code[LAC], Cell ID, Channel Number[BCCH] and GPRS and EDGE avilablity.
Look at this Picture here G in green backround means GPRS avilablity in the tower near u and G in pink means EGPRS avilability.
All of this is possible only when u flash your phone with modified firmware. for more information please visit forum.sgh.ru
Posted by zolo
I knew samsung had this facility but i went for nokia 6630 just because Field test was available as a direct installation. . . Well se7an nice info dude never thought you would be playin around with ftd he he. . . . Btw you selected the tower manually or its that you get edge in your area. . ? And could you specify which all samsung edge enabled models can be activated with Ftd firmware. . ,?
Posted by zolo
well heres how it is in symbian phones (phone used nokia 6630)....
EDGE is also termed as EGPRS here...
EGPRS = 1 which means edge connection since i manually selected it
EGPRS = 0 which means no edge
Posted by fullthrottle
Im having edge! in blr here but NOP through ssl tunnelling wingate works here!!!
speedz r low!!
MO iz gr8 13-20kbps!
Posted by jack-spicer
[ This Message was edited by: jack-spicer on 2007-09-04 15:04 ]
Posted by freworld4u
@ jack spicer
GREAT DUDE!!!
!
CONGRATS!!
chalo kahin to kuch hua!!!
so now it will be lt better wid 200kbps+!!
@se7an
wats d exact price of smsng x700 rht now??? wid bill etc??
does it support multichanelling and multiappliaction workin???
@zolo
hey dude,,u also after a very long time!! :
where were u?
btw ,,,in my gsnl case,,my ftd on 6630 shows both
egprs support as 1
and packet data as 1!!!
wat does dat mean??? bcoz as u posted abv the later is 0 in ur case!!
btw i do get edge sppeds but why dis anomaly?????
Posted by zolo
@freworld packet channel = 1 which means that the edge tower you are connected to supports dynamic channel assignment . . . A tower consists of a limited number channels through which users can make calls or send sms or access gprs. . . . So when you make a call or access gprs you use one of the channels provided by the tower. . . Also known as time slots. . . . So what happens at the time of network congestion there will be less or no time slots available to use. . .Since many users are making use of the network at the same time. . . . If you are using gprs at that time and if you remain idle for about 2secs the time slot you where using will be given to someone else. . . Just think of time slots as a wire from the tower to your mobile. . . When you don't use it the tower disconnects the wire from you and connects it to someone who needs it. . . So now your connection becomes que'd . . . You will have to wait till its available. . . Thats the reason why when we make calls at peak times we get network busy and in the case of gprs no response. . . The only way to get it fast is to disconnect the gprs and then connect again. . . I hope you got me. . . . The above said will be the condition of towers using the fixed channel assignment technology or packet channel = 0 in my case . . . But your tower supports dynamic channel so you won't be affected by these even during peak times. . . Since the tower is programmed to borrow unused time slots from neighbouring towers in your area and give it to you without interrupting the connection. . . . Which implies less network busy and internet connection time outs. . . . Mostly towers like these are located in major cities where network congestion can be a problem. . . . Although not a problem for me at all. . . I am happy atleast i am getting edge. . . .
Posted by +GameFreak+
@zolo please check your PM
Posted by se7an
Guys, first of all i will tell me about my self. Earlier i was a senior member and moderator on www.techmobile.co.uk. The site was now closed because of some legal problems. In that site some genius's like vicky, allindrome, kavin,desmat_aks,shahhitesh10,goldysharma2004,arun_desmat,ajo are redifine the samsung mobiles. now i lost them. And surely it was a golden period of mobile phones.
The picture, i was posted in earlier one doen't showin good because of esato banner. so look at here,
Top left corner of the above picture shows 6 colums. In each colum there are some green bars. these bars are indicating singnal strenth of nerarest 6 towers. below that no, 1010 indicates tower code and 0074 tells network code . Below the battary , 85% tells battary charge and 36C tells the hand set temp. Look at this Picture here G in green backround means GPRS avilablity in the tower near u and G in pink means EGPRS avilability
@all
guys there are some difference's in samsung vs nokia, nokia filesystem is accessable by java softwares(that's why u are getting viruses) but in samsung it's not possible. samsung have separte filesystem for phone and java. so we cannot make any softwares to control the phone. so we will copy the phone firmware and make some changes in it and flash it to remove the limitations and make the hidden features visible.
There is another one way to control the phone, that is secret codes.
for example:
*#8999*8378# = All in one Code
*#4777*8665# = GPSR Tool
#*3476# = EGSM (Activate or Deactivate)
like that, we have lot of codes. my x700 was comes with EGPRS decativated. so i get slow speed. one of my russian friend advice me to activate EGPRS by codes.
@zolo
please check the following web site for phones are possible to change the firmware
http://patches.sgh.ru/patches.php?
its a russian site, use bablefish.altavista.com to translate.
@jack
EDGE can be selected by using this code.
*#4777*8665# = GPSR Tool
u can select EDGE Class's form 4 to 10 by this code.
#*3273# EGPRS multislot (Class 4, 8, 9, 10)
and if you want to know more about your network and sim use this code
*#8999*8378# Test Menu
But if you want to show them on the display(like above pic.) u need to modify the firmware.
@freworld4u
Samsung x700 cost's nearly rs.8500, and i use it Live gprs.
And multiappliaction is not supported by samsung phones.
Posted by zolo
@se7an Thx for the link bro . . . Regarding the system modification you are right all java phones restrict access to system files. . . Thats the case in nokia java phones like 6230 where such displays can be activated only by modifying the firmware. . . .I believe that those secret codes are programmed by samsung for testing purpose. . . . But just don't understand why samsung deactivated the EGPRS support in the phones. . ,? And se7an how much speed do you get in pc. . . Do you subscribe to NOP or MO Or do you use free gprs. . .
Posted by stayback
| Quote: |
|
@grease
what is the tariff of airtel student offer? Urs is Prepaid ? Where do i get these sim cards in bangalore??? I want the lowest rates tariff of airtel in prepaid.
Can some1 pls call airtel & hutch customer care of Karnataka & ask the latest lowest tariff plan in prepaid of airtel & hutch??? Wat all documents are required for student plans? Am not from karnataka state, so Will i be eligible for student plan??
As Alan suggest Airtel & u suggested Hutch, I need to make a final decision to go for airtel or hutch depending on tariff.
@Alan pls ask Customer care & let me know dear.
Thanks in Advance
Posted by jack-spicer
[ This Message was edited by: jack-spicer on 2007-09-04 15:04 ]
Posted by se7an
| Quote: |
|
The reason why samsung deactivated the EGPRS is they want to sell their higher brand. for example samsung x700 have maximum mmf size as 300kb. but D500 have unlimited. if x700 is unlimited the d500 sales will down. that a business trick. i have samsung x100, samsung x660 and samsung x700.
I am a lifetime customer and i have 15kbps speed on live and 9 kbps speed on MO.
Posted by jingboyx
@se7an
dude, what is d edge class of x700? and how much max speed shud we get using a class 10 edge on Airtel gprs. on my class 10 edge phone , til now i ve only experienced a max of 12-14 kBps in salem. i believe it shud be faster than that. theoretically it could reach upto 28KBPS . . i tried this using nop. . wil i get a higher speed using MO. . have you checked d speed with any other mobile?
Posted by jack-spicer
[ This Message was edited by: jack-spicer on 2007-09-04 15:04 ]
Posted by jack-spicer
[ This Message was edited by: jack-spicer on 2007-09-04 15:04 ]
Posted by fun2sh
yes jack me too has got that page when i was tryin to use net trough live at my home in bihar a few days ago.net was not workin properly for me. after few mins no pages were openin. and mine nop was not workin at all. now i m returnin BANGALORE.
Posted by se7an
| Quote: |
|
jingboyx, X700 had EDGE Class 10. Some guys say they get 20-25kbps. but in salem i got only 14-18kbps. the speed depends upon the server and time of donwload. usually morning times are better to download. Now i was downloading vista. In our city MO is poor. it gives only 9 kbps. try using oneday instant MO. it costs only Rs.20.
Today i call the CC to subscripe NOP and they said NOP is not avilable for new customers. Only existing NOP customers can use it.
And one more service is available on Gtel. Mail sending and Reciving facility, guys check out that.
Posted by AlanDS
@jack
Congrats. Atlast you got EDGE.
Agar aapko "Netmonitor(N70)" ke baare me koi information mile tho zaroor bathaa dena.
Thanks
Posted by jingboyx
@jack-spicer
It seems like the network is quite congested at our place and hence the low speed. The nearest tower to my place has no Edge and i tested the edge speed while traveling out on the move. 23 KBps would be great..... I am yet to experience that speed. Btw, does the speed differ from dloading on mobile and via pc. On my mobile 14 kBps is the max I could get til now... I am using w300. Whats the max speed u get on ur mobile and whats ur fone?
@se7an
Whats the max speed u get on ur mobile and then on pc? Btw, i tested the speed using NOP. Yes unfortunately gtel has stopped new nop subscriptions. I am a old subscriber and I ve been using it for 2 yrs.
[ This Message was edited by: jingboyx on 2007-02-18 19:22 ]
Posted by jack-spicer
[ This Message was edited by: jack-spicer on 2007-09-04 15:05 ]
Posted by jack-spicer
[ This Message was edited by: jack-spicer on 2007-09-04 15:05 ]