Posted by axxxr
I came across this very interesting article which i agree with to a large extent and i thought i should share with you for your opinions and feedback..The Article is a bit lengthy bit it is a interesting read.
Huffingtonpost Article
We are not fighting a war against terror. Terror is a method of warfare. Fighting against terror is kind of like fighting against rifles. It misses the point. The question is who is behind the terrorism and why?
How can we possibly win a war when we don’t even know who the enemy is?
This is part of the reason we wound up in Iraq. Iraq did not attack us, and in fact, according to the 9/11 Commission, Osama bin Laden worked with anti-Saddam forces inside Iraq at one time because Hussein’s government was the type of secular government they wanted to overthrow. But we are so confused as to who we are fighting and why we are fighting them that we attacked the wrong country under the umbrella of the meaningless “war on terror.”
Perhaps this is what you get when you have a president who doesn’t “do nuance.” But putting aside who is at fault for this misguided war and whether they purposely chose to mislead us with ambiguous titles like the “war on terror,” let’s get to the heart of the issue – what are we really fighting against?
I have a simple answer – fundamentalism. Muslim fundamentalists believe it is their moral duty to fight a jihad against the West. They are guided by their strict, literal reading of the Koran (helped along by hateful imams who select the worst parts of the Koran).
But we are not just aligned against Muslim fundamentalists. The problem is broader than that. It is Jewish fundamentalists like the Gaza settlers and Christian fundamentalists like Tom DeLay who want to drive us further into this conflict. They also rely on their absurd interpretations of their religious texts.
The Jewish settlers who are being removed from the Gaza Strip this week believe God promised them that piece of land over two thousand years ago. Because of this belief they are not concerned by the 1.3 million Palestinians who happen to live there. People who are willing to walk all over the rights and property of other people because of their own religious beliefs are dangerous, not just to the people they oppress – but to all of us.
They drive us deeper and deeper into wars with no end. How can the Palestinians stop fighting if they are occupied by people who think they have no rights because God is not on their side? Of course, this will lead to conflicts that spiral out of control.
The problem is we are too polite and we are not willing to call people what they are – crazy. If you think Santa Claus, Barney the Purple Dinosaur or Yahweh promised you some land over two thousand years ago because you were specially selected by him as his chosen people – you are nuts!
On the other end of the coin, we have the Pakistani government teaching kids in seventh grade that the world was a lovely place until Jews started charging interest rates. Their social studies textbooks teach them absolute nonsense about how Christians are inferior to Muslims and Jews are tight-fisted money lenders who have no sympathy for humanity. Not all cultures are equal. A culture that teaches this garbage is wrong!
A culture that advocates, or even tolerates, female circumcision is wrong. A culture that has religious leaders imposing their decisions on people based on a specific reading of their religious texts is wrong. A culture that teaches their people that they are favored over everyone else by God is wrong.
I’ll go further. A culture that does not promote democracy where citizens are empowered to make their own decisions is wrong. A culture that is opposed to science and evolution is wrong.
Now, that sounds like I’m saying American culture is better than most of the other cultures in the world. That is mostly right. The neocons think the United States can dominate the world if we impose our democracy on other countries through invasion. I think we can prosper together in a world where we fight to impose our culture on others. Not through bloody invasions but through the power of our ideas.
There isn’t a country in the world that can withstand invasion by Levi’s, Nike, McDonald’s, American movies and Paris Hilton porn. The neocons think we can bomb Iran into a democracy (I honestly have never heard of a dumber and more counterproductive idea). I think we flood young Iranians with cell phones, laptops and television dishes, then sit back, relax and enjoy the show.
Our culture is better than theirs. Time is on our side. It’s only a matter of time before they crumble and open up their markets, their political processes and their minds.
By the way, I say this as an ethnic Muslim-American. The idea that Muslims might not enjoy freedom, open society and sexy girls wearing skimpy clothing is preposterous. We are all human. We all have the same drives. Sometimes though, our antiquated cultures hold us back from our nature and reason. This is part of what we have to fight against.
But there is one problem with American culture. Our own fundamentalists. There are Christian fundamentalists in this country who believe that Israel should have all of the occupied territories because it says it in their Book. They believe that Israel should rebuild the Temple on the Mount, thereby destroying holy Muslim sites and assuredly starting a gigantic war. Finally, they think that when this happens, Armageddon will ensue, most of the people on this Earth will die and Santa Claus, I mean Jesus Christ, will come back to save them (and only them). There’s another word for these people – crazy.
You’d have to be nuts to believe that. But they are quite serious, and they are quite powerful. Christian fundamentalists have the ear of the President. They heavily influence his decisions. And on a number of occasions, they have steered him purposely and proudly toward policies that are detrimental to the peace process. Who's against a peace process? Crazy people.
Christian fundamentalists are in incredibly powerful positions within the US government. Our former Attorney General, John Ashcroft, is a fundamentalist. He anointed himself in holy oils before he took the oath of office. You know who does that? Crazy people.
The Majority Leader of the House of Representatives, Tom DeLay is a fundamentalist. He believes God has granted the West Bank and Gaza Strip to the Jews, his Chosen People. He is indifferent to the plight of millions of Palestinians living in those territories because his interpretation of his Book tells him to be.
As long as we don’t address the fifth column in this country we will not be able to effectively fight the war against fundamentalists. There are people in America rooting for the idea of the Apocalypse – and they vote based on this idea. We have to stop them. We have to engage in the culture war.
Right now, it’s completely one-sided. The fundamentalists in this country attack with impunity and the secular Americans sit back for fear of offending the crazies. It’s time to hit them back (proverbially, violence is usually the refuge of weak-minded fundamentalists, not thinking, rational people).
It is not acceptable to be against teaching valid science to our children because you think your Book tells you to. It is not acceptable to hate gay people because you think your Book tells you to. It is not acceptable to deny other citizens their privacy because you think your Book tells you to. It is not acceptable to be one-sided in dealing with the Middle East and drive us all into war because you think your Book tells you to. It is not acceptable to root for Armageddon and try to take steps towards getting there because you think your Book tells you to.
Our President thinks God talks to him. You know who thinks that? Crazy people. The Jewish fundamentalists Yigal Amir said he shot Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin because God told him to. Why does God only tell people to shoot other people or start wars? Why can’t He just tell them to go to the dentist or get their mom flowers? Why does it always have to involve death?
Thinking you talk to God doesn’t qualify you to lead the nation – it qualifies you for a mental institution. The time for accommodation has come to an end.
The inmates have taken over the asylum. We have to take it back.
Otherwise, how can we convince Muslims around the world to take on their own fundamentalists? How can we ask Israel to stop accommodating their fundamentalists if we are not willing to challenge our own? How can we win the war against fundamentalism if some of our leaders are on the other side?
Posted by OluYom
Interesting article there. I believe that the writer made a number of valid points about the dangers of fundamentalism.
However, it seems he overdid it a bit. A very clear fundamental right of every individual is the right to believe whatever he chooses to. People are free to hold on to their faiths.
The problem starts when Mr A begins to violate Mr B's rights because of his personal beliefs. That's the real problem. Its a problem that may stem from fundamentalism. But not necessarilly.
The writer's sweeping jabs at everyone seems a little bit dangerous in itself.
I would be considered a Christian fundamentalist by some. I believe the Apocalypse will happen. I believe that Jesus Christ is returning for others who believe like me. But I know for sure that the wrong thing to do is pick up a gun and blow off the heads of the guys on the other side. That's not Christianity - its perversion [edited: extremism, I believe, is the appropriate word]. I happen to have friends who would be considered "fundamentalist" muslims, since they are firmly entrenched in the opposite of what I believe. But we work, play, live and eat together.
I also happen to believe that God speaks to people. He has spoken to me several times, and it was always about good things - contrary to the writer's jabs - like help out this guy with this, pray for that fellow, pay your taxes (yes!), apologise for that hurtful word you spoke, etc etc.
I relate with people reasonably everyday, and am considered one of the finest minds around (if I may say so myself). No; believing that God speaks to people is not madness.
In my opinion, the problem is from people who use God as an excuse to do the wrong things they want to do. Such people are all over the place. Those are the real bad guys.
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[ This Message was edited by: AYA on 2005-08-20 16:13 ]
Posted by punkbythebook99
I completely agree with that article. Id like to add something. Bush is an asshole
Posted by axxxr
AYA thanks for your comments..
punkbythebook99: I think the whole world knows that now!
Posted by carkitter
@AYA
I agree wholeheartedly with your comments.
I think that the fundamentalists of most religions are not the problem.
Fundamentalists usually have studied thier religion, rejecting the hipocrosy of the majority to focus on the purity of the original message - often a message of love/forgiveness/peace.
The author of that essay obviously can't tell the difference between a fundamentalist and an extremist.
Posted by max99
yea i mite read all dat sumtime
Posted by Sammy_boy
Read most of that and have to say I agree pretty much wholeheartedly with it!
Posted by max_wedge
Well bloody said
Posted by OluYom
@carkitter: That's the word I was looking for. "Perversion" does not quite hit the mark. "Extremism" does.
The problem is extremism, as you put it, not fundamentalism. Most people I know are fundamental about one thing or the other.
Posted by max_wedge
Most EXTREMISTS hold FUNDAMENTALIST reigious views.
But most fundamentalists do not necessarily hold extremist religious views.
As long as people don't say everyone who believes in this religion, is a fundamentalist, and everyone who believes in that religion is an Extremist, then we could live in peace.
I think that is more the point the author is trying to make.
Posted by Sammy_boy
I think you could draw one parallel here on this very site.
I've seen some people talking (Don't know if they were joking or not!) about hitting people who have Nokia phones, and others who take great pleasure in destroying them. You could say these people are extremists.
Most people here on Esato are enthusiasts. I guess condemning religions like Islam for the actions of a few is like condemning all Sony Ericsson owners as Nokia hating extremists just because a few people have Nokias to the point of wanting to hit people with them or simply think less of them because of their mobile phone.
I hate all extremism - Christians are guilty of that too. Did you know that in the US for example that neocon administration has bought in a law saying that ALL US publications, websites, etc. can only basically show topless photos? They've been some appeals against the law, but I don't think they've been successful due to the stranglehold on the supreme court and congress that Bush and his pals have
Posted by OluYom
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Quite true.
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As long as people don't say everyone who believes in this religion, is a fundamentalist, and everyone who believes in that religion is an Extremist, then we could live in peace. |
Without doubt, that's also true.
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I think that is more the point the author is trying to make. |
This is where I disagree. The author made quite sweeping remarks against beliefs that are fundamental to the religions he mentions, notably Christianity and Islam.
He actually displayed intolerance to an alarming degree when he cast aspersions on people's right to believe what their "book" says, as well as their right to believe in a God who speaks to them.
Furthermore, if we are agreed that there is a distinct difference between fundamentalism and extremism (as we seem to have), then the very premise of his write-up is flawed. The battle is not against fundamentals. Its against extremists. You would agree with that; wouldn't you?
Posted by max_wedge
I think we are getting bogged down in symantics. The author didn't say they weren't entitled to believe their book, he was saying that people who take literal meaning of one part of the book, but discard other literal interpretations that don't suit them, are crazy.
I agree. It is a kind of irrationalism that denies logic, and faith.
Let's take one example, evolution. Evolution is a well established theory with much evidence to support it (it may or may not be true, but it is a valid SCIENTIFIC theory). Religious extremists want to force a creationist "science" on all students in the name of fair hearing, yet the creationist "science" is more about discrediting the theory of evolution than building it's own scientific argument.
I agree people have the right to believe creationism, and even to teach it, but Creationism is a theology, not a science. Therefore it should be taught by religious colleges and not by the public education system. If creation, a theology, is forced on all students, then why not Islam? Why not Buddhism? Otherwise it is not a fair hearing at all.
The fact is, theologist's with faith in their beliefs do not feel the need to thrust it down everyone's throats. They are prepared to allow spirit to move people to believe, and that is the key. It is not up to us humans to determine how another person views God.
It is between that person and God alone.
I believe that all extremists have a serious lack of faith in their God, which is why they work so hard to discredit or destroy any viewpoint that opposes their own.
Posted by OluYom
@max_wedge: Yes; selective interpretation of faith has been and still remains a problem. I believe that's where extremism stems from.
People who do not care to be balanced are a danger to all of us. As a Christian, I see some Christians who are guilty of this, as much as non-Christians.
I see your point there and have no arguments against that.
Any expression of faith or personal belief that violates another man's will or personal rights is wrong and immoral. To that extent, I am on the side of the writer. But beyond that...
Posted by max_wedge
I agree the writer has a bit of a chip on their shoulder, but essentially I think it's correct.
I think it's the use of the word fundamentalism that's confusing. In some circles the word fundamentalism is thought to mean extremism, but on the same token, such people wouldn't think of yourself (who claim to be a fundamentalist) as a fundamentalist in the sense that they understand it.
They also probably don't have a spiritual perspective (that's their right) so they don't understand that some people can talk to God, and get an answer. However in their own minds they listen to intuition (even if they believe the intuition came from their own thought processes) and let it guide them. What is intuition but the voice of a higher power?
It all comes down to symantics. When you get a strong feeling or a thought pops into your head, you know when it is God. A person with an atheistic world view, hears that same voice, and calls it "logic" or "intuition".
Ultimately, we are all more alike than we are different, no matter what our world view.
Posted by Kryptik
Talk about food for thought...
Posted by carkitter
I think the writers argument is Fundamentally flawed.
He argues against fundamentalists when his beef is actually with etremists.
Knowing the fundamentals of a subject be it religion, politics, law, architecture or IT etc is a good thing I would have thought.
Semantics has nothing to do with it. The writer make outlandish and intolerant statements about what he thinks is asserted by the Bible, which he rudely refers to as 'thier Book'.
The Bible does not justify hate and neither do the fundamentalists he refers to. Extremists on the other hand...
Posted by max_wedge
Semantics means when people use words differently - so when the writer says fundamentalists, he may mean infact extremists - in which case when he says "their" book, he is referring to that extreme person's extreme interpretation of the book. Not the book itself.
However I do agree the guy does not seem very accepting of people's religious texts, but maybe he's just seen alot of the death and destruction caused by people who claim their book told them to do it. He is not railing against religious moderates - and many fundamnentalists are moderate, in the sense that they are not extremists and they are willing to live and let live.
I think his argument is on the right track. I myself wouldn't be as harsh as he is being. But the point that many religious hardliners (call them what you like) use their religious text's as an excuse to commit barbarous and selfish acts is a fair point, even if he has dressed it up with more anger than is necessary....
[ This Message was edited by: max_wedge on 2005-08-21 11:21 ]
Posted by Sammy_boy
A couple of definitions from www.dictionary.com :
Fundamentalism:
1. A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.
2. An organized, militant Evangelical movement originating in the United States in the late 19th and early 20th century in opposition to Protestant Liberalism and secularism, insisting on the inerrancy of Scripture.
Extremist:
One who advocates or resorts to measures beyond the norm, especially in politics.
extremism
Any political theory favoring immoderate uncompromising policies
Adherence to the theology of this movement.
Don't know if that helps at all!
Posted by max_wedge
thanks sammy_boy! It shows that some interpretations of fundamentalism do indeed involve extremism.
I think some peeps like to think of themselves as fundamental in the sense of "back to basics" and simplicity. That can often be a good thing, but also sometimes it can involve extremism.
Posted by Kryptik
Bear in mind he refers to Their Book in the plural, implying The Holy Writings of multiple religions. I don't necessarily agree with all he asserts, but i absolutely respect his points of view.
Posted by Sammy_boy
I have to say I'm tempted to agree with ALL that writer states. I'm at the moment very sceptical about religion, and to be honest I want to see a world that is free of religious dogma and these kinds of prescriptive religions who threaten and dictate to us how to live our life or suffer an eternity in 'hell'. imo we're already in a kind of hell, it's called the planet Earth. And it's only US, not some fictional being that can change that hell into something more like 'heaven'.
I might talk to scotsboyuk a bit more about Taoism, I rather like the sound of that.
Apologies if I've gone off at a little bit of a tangent!
Posted by Kryptik
Altho i feel the writer may have toned it down somewhat when jabbing at religions, i thoroughly agree with his sentiments re- persecution of others whose religion differs from that of he who wields power... I can't help but think of the Inquisition, de Torquemada was a prime example of a fanatic in charge of the asylum
Posted by gelfen
OMG - now we have two threads discussing religion and extremism in a respectful and sensible way. if we're not careful the server will explode
i believe the author of that piece was definitely on the right track, but got caught up in his own prejudices as well. as has already been said, the problem comes when you allow your religious beliefs to comporomise the rights of others - at which point it becomes extremist and begins to contradict the very faith you claim to be following.
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[ This Message was edited by: gelfen on 2005-08-22 09:06 ]
Posted by JK
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it will never happen! It hasnt in more than 2000 years!! Why would happen now even 100 yrs from now??? / unless theres aliens involved!!
Posted by Kryptik
@Gelfen, hear hear!!! I love it! We can discuss religion, etc without fighting... Brilliant! No wonder i'm hooked on Esato... I deleted my account at another popular site a day after i joined here, and i haven't regretted it once.
Posted by ADT0079
I do agree this guy has the right idea..........
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[ This Message was edited by: ADT0079 on 2005-08-24 22:46 ]
Posted by goldenface
I agree with the article and what he has highlighted - which is how some religions have been hijacked by some and used to spread hatred, propagate fear and intolerance and\\or misused as an excuse to cause war. Its pathetic! And Religious Extremism is very dangerous. Genocide and Ethnic Cleansing are just a couple of horrors the world has Witnessed. Also, the words 'fundamental' and religious fundamentalism are very different things.
Posted by Kryptik
I was browsing through my bookmarks when i came across this old discussion. I wonder what the previous commentators' take is on the current Middle East situation...